Original sin.

[floo]

But Jesus came to save us, not to punish us.

Save us from what, the evil god?

[Sriram]

Good grief! Who dreamed up all this stuff?

Leonard,

Ha Ha! You have been reacting with the same astonishment every time I have written about this....over the years!

You don't have to agree with what I write.... but at least you could try to take in and understand the concepts that  I am writing about.  How long can you be surprised?!  LOL!

Cheers.

Sriram

[Leonard James]

Leonard,

Ha Ha! You have been reacting with the same astonishment every time I have written about this....over the years!

That's because it never ceases to astonish me. 

You don't have to agree with what I write.... but at least you could try to take in and understand the concepts that  I am writing about.  How long can you be surprised?!  LOL!

I don't have any trouble taking in the concepts, but find them too estrafalarious to take seriously.

[Spud]

Well my post #20 is my opinion of that take on it.

To punish the whole of humanity for a 'sin' they didn't commit is the most unjust thing I've ever heard.

Didn't commit? Are you saying that it wasn't a sin to eat the forbidden fruit? Did you see message 25, haven't had your response yet.

[floo]

Didn't commit? Are you saying that it wasn't a sin to eat the forbidden fruit?

Of course it wasn't, sticking two fingers up to a deity playing silly games with humanity would have been a good deed if the myth had any credibility.

[Stranger]

Didn't commit? Are you saying that it wasn't a sin to eat the forbidden fruit?

I didn't eat any forbidden fruit.

[Spud]

Of course it wasn't, sticking two fingers up to a deity playing silly games with humanity would have been a good deed if the myth had any credibility.

In what way was the deity playing silly games with Adam and Eve?

[Spud]

I didn't eat any forbidden fruit.

And I didn't eat two forbidden yum yums today, but we have all done something wrong. Genesis 4:7 shows how after they were driven out of the garden, temptation took on other forms.

[Stranger]

And I didn't eat two forbidden yum yums today, but we have all done something wrong. Genesis 4:7 shows how after they were driven out of the garden, temptation took on other forms.

If we've all done something wrong - that's a design flaw.

Your daft deity's fault.

[floo]

And I didn't eat two forbidden yum yums today, but we have all done something wrong. Genesis 4:7 shows how after they were driven out of the garden, temptation took on other forms.

Of course we have all done something wrong in our lives, just part of being human, but not even the worst of us is as bad as the sky fairy!

[Leonard James]

Didn't commit? Are you saying that it wasn't a sin to eat the forbidden fruit? Did you see message 25, haven't had your response yet.

Don't be obtuse! The 'sin' was committed by Adam and Eve, not the whole of humanity. No just being would punish children for the sins of their parents. It was wicked and vindictive. No human judge would do it.

Of course, I'm only talking from your point of view, because in reality none of it ever happened ... it was just a folk story. 

I will go back to 25 and answer it.

[Leonard James]

Well either we died or we lived for ever with the sinful nature. 

More rubbish! People are a mixture of good and bad ... nobody is completely one or the other.

Are you being honest with me? Can you not see that I am right and it was just a fable?

[Khatru]

Religion started at the Tower of Babel. Satan was up to something else back them days. Look at what Satan did with Cain.

I take the whole Babel story (as I do most of the OT) with a large pinch of salt.

Also, it contradicts an earlier scripture (Genesis 10:5) which is part of Noah's story - it tells us how the people were divided "everyone after his tongue". This implies that despite Genesis 11:1 telling us that the world was of one language, it wasn't actually the case.

[Dicky Underpants]

Clearly though bad things do happen and lots of people are not happy at all. What then to do as what's observably true contradicts the nursery story? Easy peasy - just make the bad stuff all our fault!

Now this needed a story of some kind, so the early authors of this stuff dreamt up "Adam" and "Eve" (an iron-age notion that modern evolutionary theory has long-since fundamentally blown out of the water) and decided that they broke one of "God's" rules, so in exchange this "God" called their behaviour "original sin" and punished them for it by giving brain cancer to babies thousands of years later.

blue

Strangely enough, though, it was only the Christians who got terribly excited by this story (esp. St Paul). Some of the OT scribes don't even seem to have been aware of it (there are damn few references to it thereafter in the OT). 'Original' sin doesn't seem to much of a concern for the prophets - though NN, in a surprising moment of lucidity, does point out that one of the Psalmists thinks the condition is inherited.

However, the problem of the reality of suffering still bothered those with a few brain cells to play around with. So they came up with the story of Job. Now this is quite an advance on the story of Adam and Eve (except it doesn't deal with the origins of humanity at all) - in that the various reasons for apparently undeserved suffering are discussed through various pundits in the book. Some conclude that Job's suffering is in some way deserved - he must have broken Old Nododaddy's laws in some respect. So it goes on, until old Yahweh himself puts in an appearance, and rants on with what is supposed to be an 'answer'. Except that it is no sort of answer at all.

[Dicky Underpants]

Original Sin probably refers to the initial forces that separated the individual souls from the Universal Soul. After this 'original sin', we are now in the process of uniting back with the Universal Soul which is what the development process is all about.  This is why a universal vision is considered as 'good' and an ego centric view is considered as 'bad'.  An integrating, uniting view is considered as good and a separating, discriminating view is considered as bad.

And of course Hinduism is no better at explaining how this division of the initial 'Oneness' occurred than fundamentalist Christianity is at explaining how an individualised Satan could set himself up in opposition to God.

[Ricky Spanish]

The Christ was created to save us from the likes of NN and the Sass.

Jesus thought he was saving the Jews...

[Dicky Underpants]

The Christ was created to save us from the likes of NN and the Sass.

Jesus thought he was saving the Jews...

That's certainly a strong inference which can be drawn when he is quoted talking about 'judging the Twelve Tribes of Israel'.

BTW, this was handed to me today:

"Yes, Jesus died for Sinners on Calvary's middle tree,
So entrance into Heaven could be absolutely free!
The European, African, Asian, everybody else,
And that includes the Irish, Scottish English ........and the Welsh.

[Spud]

If we've all done something wrong - that's a design flaw.

Your daft deity's fault.

Interesting point. It does say Adam and Eve were innocent when first created though. Also we are told that Jesus was innocent.

[newnature]

Interesting point. It does say Adam and Eve were innocent when first created though. Also we are told that Jesus was innocent.

Adam and Eve had childlike innocent, Jesus still has childlike innocent.

[Leonard James]

Interesting point. It does say Adam and Eve were innocent when first created though. Also we are told that Jesus was innocent.

"it does say", "we are told" ... encapsulates a juvenile, credulous mind.

Grow up, Spud, and learn to think for yourself.

[Stranger]

Interesting point. It does say Adam and Eve were innocent when first created though. Also we are told that Jesus was innocent.

And that makes it any less of a design fault and your god's responsibility, how, exactly...?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Dickie,

The story of, the myth of Job is older than the Adam and Eve story/myth, both are there to make you think, from the story of Job I get, shit happens, from the Adam and Eve story, turning your back on God, thinking that we know better than God, maybe that is original sin, but the purpose of myth is to make us think, what happened to Adam and Eve happens today, what happened to poor old Job happens today.

And before old Horsethorn jumps on my neck ( again ) all Myths from all religions are there to make us think.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Dickie,

The story of, the myth of Job is older than the Adam and Eve story/myth, both are there to make you think, from the story of Job I get, shit happens, from the Adam and Eve story, turning your back on God, thinking that we know better than God, maybe that is original sin, but the purpose of myth is to make us think, what happened to Adam and Eve happens today, what happened to poor old Job happens today.

And before old Horsethorn jumps on my neck ( again ) all Myths from all religions are there to make us think.

Gonnagle.

Indeed they are, but the danger lies in their making us think, wrongly, that the 'gods' they purport to represent are real.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Save us from what, the evil god?

No ourselves. Our selves which are buttressed against public exposure of our basic id motivations and the excesses of the ego by civilisation and laws etc. Have you never seen Forbidden planet?

Of course, if you manage to convince youlself that it is in fact an illusion you might consider yourself as ''in the clear''

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Dickie,

The story of, the myth of Job is older than the Adam and Eve story/myth, both are there to make you think, from the story of Job I get, shit happens, from the Adam and Eve story, turning your back on God, thinking that we know better than God, maybe that is original sin, but the purpose of myth is to make us think, what happened to Adam and Eve happens today, what happened to poor old Job happens today.

And before old Horsethorn jumps on my neck ( again ) all Myths from all religions are there to make us think.

Gonnagle.

Gonners

Many scholars think the original story of Job is one of the earliest in the Bible, but its development therein is surely later than the simple story of A & E? Myths are indeed there to make us think, but the A&E myth doesn't make me think much, except to say that the Ophic Gnostics probably had the best take on it: God lied, and the serpent spoke true.