Parliamentary committee on RE decides not to consider non religious world views.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The former chairman of a cross party committee on RE is complaining that non religious world views are no longer being considered and that the committee has many more Conservative Evangelicals. The BHA have lodged complaints about this.
It turns out though that the composition of the committee is a bit broader and Lord Inderjit Singh, a member, has agreed with the narrower remit (with half an eye on cultural imperialist tendencies in the BHA perhaps?).
Should therefore non religious world views be considered in every committee on RE? Should it just be the antireligious components of non religious world views that are taught? Aren't secular humanist values conveyed culturally in a predominantly secularist country anyway and isn't this just middle class people arguing whether the middle class should be old school Conservatives or humanist libertarian?
I shall be starting a separate thread for those who believe that non religious world views should be taught to find out what should be taught so smug humanists watch out!
I am in two minds since when The BHA get involved I suspect cultural imperialism on their part but believe there is both sufficient anti religion and heritage values for it to be considered as RE.

Source BBC Radio 4.

[SteveH]

Disgraceful.  All power to the BHA's elbow.

[Hope]

Disgraceful.  All power to the BHA's elbow.

How can non-religious organisations be included in a review of a subject about RELIGIOUS Studies?     Remember that the humanists here are determined to make it clear that their belief system isn't a religious one!!

[Gordon]

How can non-religious organisations be included in a review of a subject about RELIGIOUS Studies?     Remember that the humanists here are determined to make it clear that their belief system isn't a religious one!!

I'd have thought that a clear policy on what constitutes RE is needed, and it may be there is one - since this doesn't affect Scotland (education here is fully devolved) I don't know if there is or not.

In my view RE in the state school system should contain no acts of religious worship or observance but should address the cultural, political, historical and social aspects of religion in general, which should of course included details of the tenets of different religions. As such it would be appropriate to include non-religious perspectives on issues that, in a sense, compete with religions, such as morality and also the justification of religious institutions having special status in the public arena (such as the C of E and Bishops in the HoL), which makes secularism highly relevant to RE.

I can't see either, in terms of the domestic situation here in the UK, that the issue of the decline of Christianity can be avoided given the series of studies that indicate this, where a recent study showed that here in Scotland the majority now have no stated religious affiliation.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'd have thought that a clear policy on what constitutes RE is needed, and it may be there is one - since this doesn't affect Scotland (education here is fully devolved) I don't know if there is or not.

In my view RE in the state school system should contain no acts of religious worship or observance but should address the cultural, political, historical and social aspects of religion in general, which should of course included details of the tenets of different religions.

.........and of course the theological aspects otherwise RE ends up just another boring demotivating crock of a curriculum.

[Hope]

In my view RE in the state school system should contain no acts of religious worship or observance ...

Obviously I don't know the situation in Scotland, but as far as I'm aware, this doesn't occur in either England and Wales.

[Gordon]

Obviously I don't know the situation in Scotland, but as far as I'm aware, this doesn't occur in either England and Wales.

So no hymns are sung nor prayers said in school assemblies?

[Hope]

So no hymns are sung nor prayers said in school assemblies?

School assemblies are not part of the RE syllabus, Gordon - and no, the last time I heard a hymn sung or a prayer said in an ordinary school assembly was probably before I went to Nepal (1992).  Agreed that I've heard the latter in a Remembrance Day assembly and the odd carol sung in a Christmas assembly, but not in the normal run of things.

[Sebastian Toe]

School assemblies are not part of the RE syllabus, Gordon - and no, the last time I heard a hymn sung or a prayer said in an ordinary school assembly was probably before I went to Nepal (1992).  Agreed that I've heard the latter in a Remembrance Day assembly and the odd carol sung in a Christmas assembly, but not in the normal run of things.

I thought there was a legal requirement for schools  in England  and Wales to provide a daily act of 'collective worship'?

[ProfessorDavey]

I thought there was a legal requirement for schools  in England  and Wales to provide a daily act of 'collective worship'?

I think there is, but it is neither adhered to in most non faith schools, nor is it policed. The law should obviously be changed to remove any obligation and also to ensure that any religious worship in any state funded school is on an opt-in basis rather than an opt-out basis.

[Sebastian Toe]

I think there is, but it is neither adhered to in most non faith schools,

If that is the case then those headmaster/mistresses (and their teams?) are basically breaking the law?

[ProfessorDavey]

If that is the case then those headmaster/mistresses (and their teams?) are basically breaking the law?

Yes they are.

But there are many laws on the statute book that, although remain in place in theory, are actually not enforced and therefore are in practice no longer in force.

So you are right that although someone could try to take a head teacher to court for not having a daily act of worship it would require the crown prosecution service to determine that bringing a prosecution is in the public interest - I doubt they would do so. Alternatively someone could attempt a private prosecution but that is of course fraught with difficulty and cost if not supported by the CPS.

[Maeght]

How can non-religious organisations be included in a review of a subject about RELIGIOUS Studies?     Remember that the humanists here are determined to make it clear that their belief system isn't a religious one!!

I think it should be discussed that there are people with no religious faith and about what secularisim means (many people seem to have a problem with that one) but other than that I'm not really sure what would constitute non religious world views anyway.

[Hope]

I thought there was a legal requirement for schools  in England  and Wales to provide a daily act of 'collective worship'?

This is largely observed in the breach, Seb.  For one thing, few schools (secondary, at least) have a hall large enough to house the full complement of pupils at a single sitting.  Secondly, there are also other requirements under more modern legislation that require that staff interact in a form-room, as opposed to a class-room, setting at least once a week, doing things like checking homework diaries, passing on information about events, clarifying disciplinary and other issues that have arisen.  The result is that most schools will split their pupils into three sections, years 7-9, years 10-11 and years 12-13  The assembly split is therefore years 7-9, and 10-11 - twice a week, years 12-13, once a week.  Some schools actually have three physical building 'phases', and even then, when all students are catered for, they don't have a single event across the three halls and rarely have 5 assemblies a week in every hall.

[Hope]

The law should obviously be changed to remove any obligation and also to ensure that any religious worship in any state funded school is on an opt-in basis rather than an opt-out basis.

Whereas I would argue that there shouldn't be a need to opt-in or opt-out.  The fact that religious issues are raised in assemblies so rarely in state-funded schools, I'd simply ditch the whole concept anyway.  Christians across the two nations have been calling for this change since before I started teaching.

[ProfessorDavey]

Whereas I would argue that there shouldn't be a need to opt-in or opt-out.  The fact that religious issues are raised in assemblies so rarely in state-funded schools, I'd simply ditch the whole concept anyway.  Christians across the two nations have been calling for this change since before I started teaching.

I wouldn't disagree that religious worship should be removed entirely from assemblies. Not suer how the faith school lot would think about that though. I wish to see the concept of state funded faith schools end, but while we are working toward that goal removing compulsion for collective religious worship and making it opt in rather than opt out would be a positive step forward.

[Hope]

I wouldn't disagree that religious worship should be removed entirely from assemblies. Not suer how the faith school lot would think about that though. I wish to see the concept of state funded faith schools end, but while we are working toward that goal removing compulsion for collective religious worship and making it opt in rather than opt out would be a positive step forward.

Much easier to simply enshrine current practice into law, rather than going all around the houses. If the state-funded church schools don't like that, tell them that they have to set up as church-funded, but Government-overseen schools (and let the Government the requisite school places to make them the option rather than the norm.) 

[SteveH]

How can non-religious organisations be included in a review of a subject about RELIGIOUS Studies?     Remember that the humanists here are determined to make it clear that their belief system isn't a religious one!!

Non-belief in God and the supernatural is relevant in studying religion.

[Hope]

Non-belief in God and the supernatural is relevant in studying religion.

Not sure that a subject called Religious Studies should be dealing with non-religious beliefs.  Otherwise, we could be including politics, etc.  Mind you, perhaps we ought to ditch the 'Religious' element of the name and use 'World-View', or something similar, instead.

[Gordon]

Not sure that a subject called Religious Studies should be dealing with non-religious beliefs.  Otherwise, we could be including politics, etc.  Mind you, perhaps we ought to ditch the 'Religious' element of the name and use 'World-View', or something similar, instead.

I can't see how you could study the issue of religion without reference to politics.

[Sassy]

The former chairman of a cross party committee on RE is complaining that non religious world views are no longer being considered and that the committee has many more Conservative Evangelicals. The BHA have lodged complaints about this.
It turns out though that the composition of the committee is a bit broader and Lord Inderjit Singh, a member, has agreed with the narrower remit (with half an eye on cultural imperialist tendencies in the BHA perhaps?).
Should therefore non religious world views be considered in every committee on RE? Should it just be the antireligious components of non religious world views that are taught? Aren't secular humanist values conveyed culturally in a predominantly secularist country anyway and isn't this just middle class people arguing whether the middle class should be old school Conservatives or humanist libertarian?
I shall be starting a separate thread for those who believe that non religious world views should be taught to find out what should be taught so smug humanists watch out!
I am in two minds since when The BHA get involved I suspect cultural imperialism on their part but believe there is both sufficient anti religion and heritage values for it to be considered as RE.

Source BBC Radio 4.

What has non religious world views to do with RELIGIOUS EDUCATION?

How can a non religious view be part of Religious Education?

Religious education is about religions throughout the world. The belief by individuals in such religions and their opinions are not part of that process. In a nutshell a non religious view would be discussing why people do not believe in any or all particular religions. It is immaterial when the idea is just to educate people about the religions of the world.

Religious Education is about the religions themselves not the opinions of the people who believe in them or those which don't.


My advice would be: Make it clear in topic heading that the RE stands for religious education.
Make sure people know that educating people about all religions is not in anyway looking to convert anyone.
Nor is it about personal opinions of belief.

You would think grown men and women could have worked that one out for themselves.

[Hope]

I can't see how you could study the issue of religion without reference to politics.

Not all religions are interested in politics.  Christianity is possibly the one with the greatest link, but then - in my view, that ought to be being covered in Citizenship-type lessons.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not all religions are interested in politics.  Christianity is possibly the one with the greatest link, but then - in my view, that ought to be being covered in Citizenship-type lessons.

I guess it depends what you mean by politics.

You can take a narrow view of politics, specifically linked to formal government. You can take a much broader view that politics is any process and system that aims to make decisions about the running of a community, society or group of people.

Sure in the narrower definition you may argue that some religions don't get involved in politics. However if you take the broader view then pretty well all religions are inherently political organisations in that they make decisions that apply to all people within that group (members of that religion).

[Hope]

I guess it depends what you mean by politics.

True, but I would suggest that - apart from briefly touching on the overall poltical stances of various religions in RE (something that we don't do at present, if you think about it) the best place for the study of politics is in Citizenship or PSHE classes, depending on which a given school uses.

[Gordon]

True, but I would suggest that - apart from briefly touching on the overall poltical stances of various religions in RE (something that we don't do at present, if you think about it) the best place for the study of politics is in Citizenship or PSHE classes, depending on which a given school uses.

I think for as long as there are C of E Bishops sitting in the H o L by default (and I think you said you don't support this) then in UK terms religion and politics aren't mutually exclusive.