What of non religious world view should make it into RE?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I suspect you are over-thinking it, Vlad.

After all if the aim is to review theism in historical, philosophical, cultural, social, legal and political terms then since you'd have to note that not all theists ascribed to the same religion (noting the differences between religions) then why wouldn't you also note that some people were atheists?

Is that the aim? Then we are qualifying Religious education in the light of cultural secularism then................yes or no.

[Rhiannon]

No, I think you make a thoughtful point.

I can't see how that ''teaches atheism clearly'' though which is what the BHA seem to want when God is covered.

But that's all atheism is - some people don't believe in God. That does teach it clearly.

[Rhiannon]

There should be one straightforward rule about teaching ABOUT religions - Do not at any time tell any child that any god is true.  A brief outline of how religious beliefs arose and have  changed, i.e. the history of religious beliefs and how they are known today is important as is the equally important information that many people do not believe in any god.

The bottom line should always be 'people have believed that there are gods. To tell a child that any god is true is to tell them a falsehood.

It's downright dangerous to put belief in gods in the past tense given how the world is, Susan. It's important that belief is taught about as something that is still shaping our world.

[splashscuba]

Given that atheists on this forum are very cagey about saying what they actually believe but contradictorily want non religious world views taught in RE (indeed Gordon, for example has said he is just here to counter the religious) what is it about non religious world views that posters and predominantly atheist posters want to be taught in RE?

Fill your boots.

I believe in lots of things. As long as it's not about gods, what do you want to talk abouy ? Fill your boots

[Maeght]

Then do you agree that this statement from the BHA makes no sense
..........''atheism taught about clearly when beliefs about god are being taught,''?

As Rhiannon says, it should be made clear that some people don't believe in God within RE lessons. That seems like teaching about atheism to me - I don't know if the BHA mean anything more than that in what they've said but best to ask them I'd have thought.

[Gordon]

Is that the aim? Then we are qualifying Religious education in the light of cultural secularism then................yes or no.

Not really: take my grandson's situation, he is at secondary school here in Scotland where we know from a recent survey (that I noted in the 'decline continues' thread) which noted that the majority of people living in Scotland no longer identify themselves as having religious affiliation - so if we are educating our kids this situation clearly can't be ignored.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But that's all atheism is - some people don't believe in God. That does teach it clearly.

Not, if we see it in the contexts that Gordon outlined earlier on namely

''in historical, philosophical, cultural, social, legal and political terms''.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not really: take my grandson's situation, he is at secondary school here in Scotland where we know from a recent survey (that I noted in the 'decline continues' thread) which noted that the majority of people living in Scotland no longer identify themselves as having religious affiliation - so if we are educating our kids this situation clearly can't be ignored.

A bit little scotlander IMO. How is wee Jocky going to know not to laugh at the man with the piece of cloth on his head or that Father Flynn is not merely motivated by the basest of motives?

[Gordon]

Not, if we see it in the contexts that Gordon outlined earlier on namely

''in historical, philosophical, cultural, social, legal and political terms''.

I suggest you re-read my post, Vlad, in which I noted that a comprehensive review of theism must also include that not all theists have the same religious affiliation and that not all people are theists.

Would you not agree that is the case?

[Gordon]

A bit little scotlander IMO. How is wee Jocky going to know not to laugh at the man with the piece of cloth on his head or that Father Flynn is not merely motivated by the basest of motives?

Education, Vlad, and the example set by his family.

If you don't mind I'll ignore the rest of your post: I don't much care if you insult me but insulting my grandson (who is a caring and thoughtful lad in spite of being a teenager) does seem uncalled for.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Education, Vlad, and the example set by his family.

If you don't mind I'll ignore the rest of your post: I don't much care if you insult me but insulting my grandson (who is a caring and thoughtful lad in spite of being a teenager) does seem uncalled for.

I was actually referring to the little scotlander attitude and casting the offspring of an insular cultural Scottish apatheism in the collective roll of wee Jocky, Gordon............. not your grandson who I am sure is as you describe.

[Gordon]

I was actually referring to the little scotlander attitude and casting the offspring of an insular cultural Scottish apatheism in the collective roll of wee Jocky, Gordon............. not your grandson who I am sure is as you describe.

I seem to remember you said elsewhere you were born here in Scotland so I'm surprised to see you patronise us so.

My grandson will be here tomorrow before he goes to school, where as I said earlier they do 'RMPS' so I'll ask him for his comments on your earlier post and let you know what he says.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I seem to remember you said elsewhere you were born here in Scotland so I'm surprised to see you patronise us so.

My grandson will be here tomorrow before he goes to school, where as I said earlier they do 'RMPS' so I'll ask him for his comments on your earlier post ang let you know what he says.

Can one patronise oneself?.......I suppose if you're like me who will patronise any bugger the answer must be yes.

[Gordon]

Can one patronise oneself?.......I suppose if you're like me who will patronise any bugger the answer must be yes.

Am I to assume you have your finger on the pulse of culture in general, and state education in particular? If so, then I assume you must spend time here since, as I'm sure know, education here is fully devolved to Holyrood.

So, do you spend much time here so as to be able to guage first hand the extent of the 'insular Scottish cultural apatheism' you mentioned?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Am I to assume you have your finger on the pulse of culture in general, and state education in particular? If so, then I assume you must spend time here since, as I'm sure know, education here is fully devolved to Holyrood.

So, do you spend much time here so as to be able to guage first hand the extent of the 'insular Scottish cultural apatheism' you mentioned?

I think you are suggesting that I am missing something. Are you saying that the Scottish humanists satisfied with the state of RE? If so then why aren't the BHA campaigning for similar across the UK?

[Gordon]

I think you are suggesting that I am missing something. Are you saying that the Scottish humanists satisfied with the state of RE? If so then why aren't the BHA campaigning for similar across the UK?

No, Vlad. I'm suggesting that you are a thoughtless patronising clown who has all the sensitivity of a flying mallet and who doesn't know when to stop digging.

[Brownie]

I understood that RE was now 'Religion and Ethics' and that is the name of the GCSE.  So I imagine religion and no religion are both covered.

[Maeght]

I understood that RE was now 'Religion and Ethics' and that is the name of the GCSE.  So I imagine religion and no religion are both covered.

Good.

[Rhiannon]

I understood that RE was now 'Religion and Ethics' and that is the name of the GCSE.  So I imagine religion and no religion are both covered.

No. It compares the religion, philosophy and ethics of Christianity and Islam. At least, the syllabus taught at the school attended by my kids does.

[ProfessorDavey]

I used to be a school governor with responsibility for RE and as such I sat in on various lessons. Whenever a faith topic is taught the teacher has to say 'this is what some people believe about God; compare this with what some of you believe about God.' The predominant idea is that God exists and absence of belief is hinted at at best.

All this requires us the addition of 'and some people don't believe in God.' It's nothing for you to get frightened about unless you think the theist position can't stand up to that.

Indeed, clear and simple. It is important that children are not lead into thinking that the distinction is between people who believe this god, that god and the other god without it being clear that many people do not believe in any of those god and that doesn't make them somehow less moral as a consequence.

[Hope]

..., without it being clear that many people do not believe in any of those god and that doesn't make them somehow less moral as a consequence.

The issue I have with this whole concept is just what the basis is for humanist moral thinking.  It would appear not to be linked to an understanding of human life as having intrinsic value and purpose as there seems to be no grounds for a humanist understanding of purpose.  Rather, humanism would seem to be based on situational thinking, so what might be seen as of value today might not be tomorrow.

[Rhiannon]

So humanists are less moral than believers, Hope?

[Hope]

So humanists are less moral than believers, Hope?

Not necessarily; just wondering what their understandings are based on.  However, if they are situational in their thinking, perhaps they could be seen in that light.

[Rhiannon]

Not necessarily; just wondering what their understandings are based on.  However, if they are situational in their thinking, perhaps they could be seen in that light.

Well, your morality is based on your interpretation of words in an old book; I find both that and some of the conclusions that you have reached to be immoral. Being a Bible-believing Christian isn't a badge of superiority.

On the other hand there are some Christians that I find to be incredibly compassionate and moral human beings. No doubt you may view them differently.

[Brownie]

No. It compares the religion, philosophy and ethics of Christianity and Islam. At least, the syllabus taught at the school attended by my kids does.

Thanks for clarifying that Rhiannon.  It sounds interesting if nothing else.