The Decietful And Insidious EU.

[Jack Knave]

Does it explain quite how many of UKIP leaders support a form of TTIP that is more extreme than what is proposed in EU, or do they lie about being a neo liberal front?

Could you clarify and back up your assertion.

[Jack Knave]

I read it for goodness sake.

Before or after your inane comment?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I doubt if the Tories are going to win the next GE. It will probably be another coalition with a fair chunk being made up by UKIP. 

Why will UKIP be any more successful having been in a coalition than the Lib Dems?
UKIP will be a coalition of right wing tories and labour voters worried about jobs. That's like a coalition of carnivores and herbivores.

[jeremyp]

They are one and the same thing. If it walks like a duck....

The USA is a superstate. That doesn't seem to be working out too badly for them.

[Hope]

I can't believe that anyone thinks the EU is good considering the evidence of its malfeasance and corruption and lack of democracy!!! Read the article.

Not sure that anyone believes that the EU is good, let alone perfect, JK.  What many do believe is that staying within the Union will give the UK a greater global influence than by being outside and that the UK need to be part of a larger union, rather than alone, for a whole range of reasons.

As you are so keen on our leaving the Union, perhaps you could give an response to this:

"There is no doubt that a vote to leave will affect charities, especially those campaigning in Parliament. ...  One thing both campaigns can agree on, ..., is that a vote to leave would spark a major upheaval in British politics – and charities campaigning in parliament would undoubtedly be affected by this."  http://bit.ly/1pGaIfA

[Hope]

I doubt if the Tories are going to win the next GE. It will probably be another coalition with a fair chunk being made up by UKIP. 

That assumes, of course, that the 'Leave' campaign win the referendum.

[Hope]

Why will UKIP be any more successful having been in a coalition than the Lib Dems?
UKIP will be a coalition of right wing tories and labour voters worried about jobs. That's like a coalition of carnivores and herbivores.

Assuming, of course, that the Tories feel it necessary to touch UKIP with a bargepole.

[Brownie]

Unfortunately Hope, some will.  Not many of course but there will be a few.  Don't forget there has already been an MP who defected from Cons to UKIP.

[Hope]

Unfortunately Hope, some will.  Not many of course but there will be a few.  Don't forget there has already been an MP who defected from Cons to UKIP.

Which is why I said 'the Tories' - in other words, the party - in the same way we talk about 'the UK Independence Party', 'the Scottish Nationalist Party' or 'the Lib-Dems'. 

[ProfessorDavey]

Your posts are becoming more and more bizarre as they diverge further and further from common sense, rational thinking and logic, and totally blind to the reality of the situation.

The bizarre and irrational approach is to consider that a purported quote, allegedly made by a French politician 66 years ago, who has been dead for nearly 40 years is somehow relevant to the 2016 Brexit debate.

And by the way it is a lie - he never said it and I challenge you to prove that he did and I am quite happy to prove that he didn't. But you first.

[L.A.]

I doubt if the Tories are going to win the next GE. It will probably be another coalition with a fair chunk being made up by UKIP. 

If there is a vote for BREXIT, all the UKIP politicians who have half a brain will immediately join the Tories. If there is a remain vote, UKIP will revert to a bunch of discontented nutters.

[ProfessorDavey]

UKIP will revert to a bunch of discontented nutters.

What do you mean 'revert'.

[L.A.]

What do you mean 'revert'.

Point taken.

[Brownie]

Which is why I said 'the Tories' - in other words, the party - in the same way we talk about 'the UK Independence Party', 'the Scottish Nationalist Party' or 'the Lib-Dems'.

Understood.  Not some Tories.

[Jack Knave]

Why will UKIP be any more successful having been in a coalition than the Lib Dems?
UKIP will be a coalition of right wing tories and labour voters worried about jobs. That's like a coalition of carnivores and herbivores.

It will be a factor of several issues. Dissatisfaction with politics as usual as we are seeing in the Western world (you could include the Greens in this as well as UKIP). The referendum will piquet many peoples' antennae who usually didn't register much of what was going on in the EU before all this. If we stay I reckon people will be clamouring for another referendum in 2 or so years time as the EU start to screw us down. If we leave then the fact that those in power are pro-EU and probably won't negotiate a good deal for us will make many rebel.

There could be other factors like the unelectability of Corbyn and the fact that the Tories have been so venal and two faced. And other things which may not be predictable or foreseen.

[Jack Knave]

The USA is a superstate. That doesn't seem to be working out too badly for them.

Your point to the original topic of comparison?

[Jack Knave]

Not sure that anyone believes that the EU is good, let alone perfect, JK.  What many do believe is that staying within the Union will give the UK a greater global influence than by being outside and that the UK need to be part of a larger union, rather than alone, for a whole range of reasons.

As you are so keen on our leaving the Union, perhaps you could give an response to this:

"There is no doubt that a vote to leave will affect charities, especially those campaigning in Parliament. ...  One thing both campaigns can agree on, ..., is that a vote to leave would spark a major upheaval in British politics – and charities campaigning in parliament would undoubtedly be affected by this."  http://bit.ly/1pGaIfA

I've started a thread that has a link to 8 economist who say that leaving is better for us. I suggest you read it.

What has charities got to do with anything? This is about the UK.

[Jack Knave]

That assumes, of course, that the 'Leave' campaign win the referendum.

No, it will be true where we stay or go. Feelings are running high and there will be fallout after the referendum.

[Jack Knave]

Unfortunately Hope, some will.  Not many of course but there will be a few.  Don't forget there has already been an MP who defected from Cons to UKIP.

A million Labour voters voted UKIP in the last GE. They aren't feeling that Labour are on their side and with many being anti-EU, cause of loss of jobs, Corbyn being for the Remain side doesn't help. Voters also don't like divided parties.

[L.A.]

A million Labour voters voted UKIP in the last GE. They aren't feeling that Labour are on their side and with many being anti-EU, cause of loss of jobs, Corbyn being for the Remain side doesn't help. Voters also don't like divided parties.

Labour has become a joke, so no surprise they are losing voters. The 'crunch' will come after the referendum when (one way or another) all the parties will suffer some trauma.

[Jack Knave]

The bizarre and irrational approach is to consider that a purported quote, allegedly made by a French politician 66 years ago, who has been dead for nearly 40 years is somehow relevant to the 2016 Brexit debate.

And by the way it is a lie - he never said it and I challenge you to prove that he did and I am quite happy to prove that he didn't. But you first.

You're first bit is not logical and rational - what has time got to do with it. It shows the ethos and raison d'etre of the EU's attitude and approach.

If he didn't say it then the EU must have put up a disclaimer - find it!!!

[Jack Knave]

If there is a vote for BREXIT, all the UKIP politicians who have half a brain will immediately join the Tories. If there is a remain vote, UKIP will revert to a bunch of discontented nutters.

One thing will be true is that if it is a remain vote the fight will go on and this will not be put to bed. Every slip of the EU will be broadcast from the rooftops and discontentment will grow.

[ProfessorDavey]

You're first bit is not logical and rational - what has time got to do with it. It shows the ethos and raison d'etre of the EU's attitude and approach.

If he didn't say it then the EU must have put up a disclaimer - find it!!!

Come on then - let's have the source please. An actual proper indication that he said this back in 1952.

Oh and by the way, you won't find one - why, because he never said it. Indeed this 'quote' actually originates from material in a book (and even then misquoted from that book's author) written in 1997, which was 18 years after Monnet's death.

So one more chance and then I will put you out of your misery and reveal all as to where your 'quote' comes from, but here's a clue - it isn't from Monnet.

You OP is a lie - pure and simple - Jean Monnet never said what you attribute to him.

[L.A.]

One thing will be true is that if it is a remain vote the fight will go on and this will not be put to bed. Every slip of the EU will be broadcast from the rooftops and discontentment will grow.

You seem to be saying that UKIP would refuse to accept the results of a democratic election?

I suspect that a few won't but they will just be the 'Nutter on the bus' types - possibly you know someone like that ? 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

A million Labour voters voted UKIP in the last GE. They aren't feeling that Labour are on their side and with many being anti-EU, cause of loss of jobs, Corbyn being for the Remain side doesn't help. Voters also don't like divided parties.

Again, how is a right winger on the side of Labour voters?