#regressive left

[Jack Knave]

We've always had choice, if you wanted the hard left there were parties that offered that.

I think what we need is a good opposition to hold the Tory government to account. The Tories have been woeful recently and Corbyn isn't able to land a blow because of the sniping going on in his own party, no policy and massive own goals.

What is the Labour position on Trident? What did John McDonnell suggest for the Google fiasco, a sales tax- but Google sales are in Ireland. The anti-Semitism scandal hasn't helped either.

But we don't need politics as usual either, which includes the usual old time parties or their machinations. We need something for our changing times, not something from the past.

[Jack Knave]

Hi Gonnagle,

It's a bit of an over-statement to describe Benn as 'my man' , I was simply pointing out that he seems to be the only one who talks sense, and 'talking' is all any politician can do until they gain power. To get power they need to convince their party and the electorate of their credibility. Talking sense is a first step. For most of the electorate, what you call 'Blairism' equates to 'not doing stupid things' .

Oh like starting an illegal war? Causing total chaos in the Middle East, because of short term planning? Failing to rein in the banks so allowing them to go crazy and cause the financial crash? PFIs? Yeah, right, nothing stupid!!!

Corbyn is indeed a very poor orator and pretty poor in every over area too. The far Left love him - but sadly for Labour the voters don't.

There is talk/rumours of someone from his ilk taking over who is more apt at running a party and being a leader. That is, he would step aside and allow this new guy to take over and carry on his politics.

[Jack Knave]

If the Conservatives are able to sort themselves out after the referendum and Labour keep Corbyn, it will be a very long time before we ever see another Labour government.

Big IF. This Blue on Blue is not for the faint hearted and I can't see how the Tories will patch things up. At first they may feign it but Cameron is such a nasty, cutting brute it won't last for long. It also depends on the result of the referendum. I think Labour are pretty doomed regardless of the state of the Tories. If the usual Tory voters are really put off by them then I reckon they will vote UKIP. 

'First Passed the Post' does not favour small parties.

That is true but as one Ukipper said it wouldn't have taken many more votes, say another million to give them a handsome set of seats. They got 118 second places and with a slight increase in their votes in those choice constituencies they could have acquired say 50 seats. If the Greens and others do similar things that would mean a hung parliament with a coalition needing at least three parties. I reckon 2020 will be a complex hung parliament.

[L.A.]

Oh like starting an illegal war? Causing total chaos in the Middle East, because of short term planning? Failing to rein in the banks so allowing them to go crazy and cause the financial crash? PFIs? Yeah, right, nothing stupid!!!

My phrase was Jack "what you call 'Blairism'"

I am certainly no fan of Blair and I'd agree with many of your comments - but - not everything he did was wrong and the Far Left now use the phrase Blairite to describe any moderate polices.

[L.A.]

Big IF. This Blue on Blue is not for the faint hearted and I can't see how the Tories will patch things up. At first they may feign it but Cameron is such a nasty, cutting brute it won't last for long. It also depends on the result of the referendum. I think Labour are pretty doomed regardless of the state of the Tories. If the usual Tory voters are really put off by them then I reckon they will vote UKIP. 

My guess is that after all the screaming and shouting is over pragmatism will kick-in - the losing side will have nowhere else to go except the political wilderness.

That is true but as one Ukipper said it wouldn't have taken many more votes, say another million to give them a handsome set of seats. They got 118 second places and with a slight increase in their votes in those choice constituencies they could have acquired say 50 seats. If the Greens and others do similar things that would mean a hung parliament with a coalition needing at least three parties. I reckon 2020 will be a complex hung parliament.

After the referendum UKIP will have lost their raison d'etre. If there is a BREXIT vote Douglas Carswell will rejoin the Tories but the rest of the party will just dissolve. If there is a REMAIN vote on the other hand, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of discontents muttering in dark corners.

Either way - no UKIP.

[Jack Knave]

My guess is that after all the screaming and shouting is over pragmatism will kick-in - the losing side will have nowhere else to go except the political wilderness.

How that spans out will depend on whether the Corbynites fight hard to keep their power. They do have the votes from the members and if they don't care about the electability thing things could get very dirty indeed.

After the referendum UKIP will have lost their raison d'etre. If there is a BREXIT vote Douglas Carswell will rejoin the Tories but the rest of the party will just dissolve. If there is a REMAIN vote on the other hand, UKIP will be reduced to small groups of discontents muttering in dark corners.

Either way - no UKIP.

No, No, No, no, no.

UKIP are a party going from being a movement to a proper political party, hence all the upsets and in fighting.

The political landscape is changing which is a perfect opportunity for a new party to take hold of things. This referendum is just one part of the dissatisfaction that is running through politics in the Western world.

If it is a Remain vote then not only will UKIP keep on fighting on for a Brexit but many of the Tory lot won't let go of the fight. This passion goes very deep into peoples' hearts and it ain't going away.

[L.A.]

UKIP are a party going from being a movement to a proper political party, hence all the upsets and in fighting.

The political landscape is changing which is a perfect opportunity for a new party to take hold of things. This referendum is just one part of the dissatisfaction that is running through politics in the Western world.

If it is a Remain vote then not only will UKIP keep on fighting on for a Brexit but many of the Tory lot won't let go of the fight. This passion goes very deep into peoples' hearts and it ain't going away.

UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.

If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? -  They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.

It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.

[Nearly Sane]

UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.

If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? -  They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.

It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.

So every political party that loses an election, accepts the will of the people, immediately folds, and they all go home?

[L.A.]

So every political party that loses an election, accepts the will of the people, immediately folds, and they all go home?

No - as I pointed out earlier, UKIP's raison d'etre has been getting Britain out of Europe. As you might have noticed we are about to have a referendum which will (hopefully) decide the issue - which would appear to leave UKIP without a purpose.

[Nearly Sane]

No - as I pointed out earlier, UKIP's raison d'etre has been getting Britain out of Europe. As you might have noticed we are about to have a referendum which will (hopefully) decide the issue - which would appear to leave UKIP without a purpose.

Surely the purpose of a political party is to represent a view? This seems even more bizarre as you seem to be stating everyone who voted Leave should stop thinking it's the right thing.

[L.A.]

Surely the purpose of a political party is to represent a view? This seems even more bizarre as you seem to be staying everyone who voted Leave should stop thinking tie the right thing.

UKIP was established to get Britain out of the EU and some might say that they have been highly successful in forcing the referendum. But having set up a democratic process like a referendum, you really need to accept the result.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't continue as a political party - just that I don't see much future for them.

[Nearly Sane]

UKIP was established to get Britain out of the EU and some might say that they have been highly successful in forcing the referendum. But having set up a democratic process like a referendum, you really need to accept the result.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't continue as a political party - just that I don't see much future for them.

See SNP and the quadrupling of their membership after losing the referendum

[L.A.]

See SNP and the quadrupling of their membership after losing the referendum

I think you are seeing parallels that don't exist.

[Nearly Sane]

I think you are seeing parallels that don't exist.

I'm not suggesting it is a parallel, just that assuming losing a referendum means your support will melt away as you seem to suggest is demonstrably incorrect.

[L.A.]

I'm not suggesting it is a parallel, just that assuming losing a referendum means your support will melt away as you seem to suggest is demonstrably incorrect.

After the referendum UKIP's 'fox will have been shot'. If it's Brexit the Tories will take all credit and UKIP will be totally marginalised (and they could only get 1 MP at their peek)

If it's a Remain vote they of course they can whine, but the country will need to move on and everyone will be sick-to-death of the EU debate, so they are not going to get another referendum any time soon - so all they can do is moan.

[Jack Knave]

UKIP almost certainly peeked at the last election - and only got a single MP (who had previously been the Conservative MP and hence had a good local following). If BREXIT wins the referendum, the Tories will replace UKIP's role. UKIP will be weaker than ever and without a purpose.

If REMAIN wins, what can UKIP do? -  They will have to accept the democratic decision of The People.

It only remains to be seen whether UKIP ends with a bang or a whimper.

This referendum has polarized things and will split the Tories, or at least degrade them as the electorate don't like a divided party. This will leave UKIP free to develop themselves as a political party and give them a good chance for the future. Brexit can only boost them as they will be seen as the party that brought the people their wish to leave the EU.

As for a Remain victory, the argument and issue to leave the EU is a strong and valid one and those against it will keep on fighting for it. The other thing here is that the conduct of the EU after a Remain victory will, I think, create a demand for another referendum in a few years time. Brussels are arrogant, egotistical twats and will surely irk the British people and this will give UKIP a boost in the poles.

[Aruntraveller]

Brussels UKIP are arrogant, egotistical twats and will surely irk the British people and this will give UKIP Brussels a boost in the polls.

FTFY

[Jack Knave]

After the referendum UKIP's 'fox will have been shot'. If it's Brexit the Tories will take all credit and UKIP will be totally marginalised (and they could only get 1 MP at their peek)

If it's a Remain vote they of course they can whine, but the country will need to move on and everyone will be sick-to-death of the EU debate, so they are not going to get another referendum any time soon - so all they can do is moan.

What??     

The official line of the Tories is to stay in!!! If it is Brexit then Cameron is out for sure. The people who will get the credit will be UKIP.

[Jack Knave]

FTFY

You blind, naïve fool.

This is why the EU is failing because it is run by monkeys like you who have no idea of reality or the misery they are causing the people. One is suppose to learn from history but it seems the French Revolution has gone right over your/their head(s).

[Aruntraveller]

You blind, naïve fool.

This is why the EU is failing because it is run by monkeys like you who have no idea of reality or the misery they are causing the people. One is suppose to learn from history but it seems the French Revolution has gone right over your/their head(s).

I am finding your attitude of insulting everyone who disagrees with you particularly unpleasant - not to mention unproductive in terms of you trying to argue your case. I am by turn a monkey, I am blind and I am a fool.

What specific misery is it causing you as you sit in front of your pc typing your bile?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Jack,

Yeah!! calm down old son, we all love you

How do you get those two wee dots on top of your naive, I don't see it on my keyboard

Gonnagle.

[Jack Knave]

I am finding your attitude of insulting everyone who disagrees with you particularly unpleasant - not to mention unproductive in terms of you trying to argue your case. I am by turn a monkey, I am blind and I am a fool.

What specific misery is it causing you as you sit in front of your pc typing your bile?

You claim to have done something which you haven't and then asked me to reply to it. Likewise, I find stupidity in others, usually trying to be obfuscatory on the issue, as 'particularly unpleasant', hence my contemptuous response.

[Jack Knave]

Dear Jack,

Yeah!! calm down old son, we all love you

How do you get those two wee dots on top of your naive, I don't see it on my keyboard

Gonnagle.

I'm fine Gonny. Just enjoying myself being creative.

As for those two dots, spittle. Though getting such a fine spray isn't that easy. 

[Aruntraveller]

You claim to have done something which you haven't and then asked me to reply to it. Likewise, I find stupidity in others, usually trying to be obfuscatory on the issue, as 'particularly unpleasant', hence my contemptuous response.

I didn't know you  could get your sense of humour removed on the NHS. Still, Nige can afford for you to go private can't he?

[Jack Knave]

I didn't know you  could get your sense of humour removed on the NHS. Still, Nige can afford for you to go private can't he?

You are stupid to moan about my comments to you when you come out with inane material as that. 

Perhaps if you tried actually forming an argument or cogent comment things would proceed in a more smoother manner.