Why Christ is the Son of God.

[trippymonkey]

Jesus has become an idol too !!!! 

[floo]

Jesus has become an idol too !!!! 

Yes he has. No one can prove that anything the gospel writers wrote about the guy have any credence.

[Brownie]

I'm reliably informed he always speaks highly of you floo. 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Just out of interest, did anyone manage to support the assertion in the OP with something more sensible than, "because a book says so"?

[floo]

Just out of interest, did anyone manage to support the assertion in the OP with something more sensible than, "because a book says so"?

Of course not.

[Sassy]

If Jesus was not called God in several verses of the NT you would have a point. When he mentions God in John 17:3 it is because he is distinguishing God from idols, and does not preclude his own deity.

You miss the point Spud... Son of God is to equal himself with God not become God or replace God.
Jesus was the Son of God because he did what his Father does.
He did not sin. He was not a liar and not false.

The NT is not and never has been used by any of the Prophets, Jesus or the disciples because it never existed when they were here. In fact the only scripture any refer to is the OT. The truth is that Paul relates to everyone the truth that anything written or said by anyone is to be judged by the OT. You are to ignore him and any other speaker where the words cannot be justified by the Old Testament.

Jesus is spoken about in the OT and according to Christ...

King James Bible
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Jesus is the Son of God. Like Moses he represented God and made him known to us.



King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


King James Bible
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

King James Bible
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


At no time did Christ call himself God. By calling himself the Son of God he then became equal in that he was like God.
The Sons of Gods the Angels are also without sin but they are not God. 

It is the Spirit who reveals things to mankind. Christ clearly stated. " My words are spirit and they are life." Like all flesh they receive the word from God by the Power of Gods Holy Spirit.

We know that the power of God for the believer is in the Spirit and the Spirit teaches the believer.


In Christ we are saved and in Gods anointing of the baptism receiving the Spirit we have Gods mark on us to live as he has ordained. John is telling and warning people that Christ came in the flesh to fulfill the prophecy from God.
Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. It clearly shows what Peter believed about Jesus.
He believed the same things as I believe. God anointed Jesus (greater is he who anoints) with the Holy Ghost and with Power; who went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.


When the truth comes down to it... The OT does not confirm that Jesus was anything but a Prophet and the Son of God.
That God was with him.

[trippymonkey]

MMM?!?!?!
Try & convince the Jews of this then as it's THEM Jesus came for initially, no ?!?!?

Nick

[bluehillside Retd.]

Floo,

Of course not.

Shame that - given the promise of the OP's title, there was me think that Sassy would finally make and argument rather than just quotes chunks from a book with no attempt to demonstrate first it's truthfulness or accuracy. I had the family pack of Cheesy Wotsits and a large bottle of ginger beer all ready too 

[Spud]

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. It clearly shows what Peter believed about Jesus.
He believed the same things as I believe. God anointed Jesus (greater is he who anoints) with the Holy Ghost and with Power; who went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.


When the truth comes down to it... The OT does not confirm that Jesus was anything but a Prophet and the Son of God.
That God was with him.

Thanks for your reply, Sassy. I can't comment on all of it at the moment, but just to clarify, I do agree that Jesus is the Son of God. Also I noticed in this verse that we see the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit mentioned together. By the way you have read the verse, Jesus is distinct from God. However, if you read it this way then you also have to say that the Holy Spirit is distinct from God.

[floo]

Floo,

Shame that - given the promise of the OP's title, there was me think that Sassy would finally make and argument rather than just quotes chunks from a book with no attempt to demonstrate first it's truthfulness or accuracy. I had the family pack of Cheesy Wotsits and a large bottle of ginger beer all ready too 

All in vain of course, LOL!

[Ricky Spanish]

You miss the point Spud... Son of God is to equal himself with God not become God or replace God.
Jesus was the Son of God because he did what his Father does.

So he was just a 1st century Jew then.

The NT is not and never has been used by any of the Prophets, Jesus or the disciples because it never existed when they were here.

**Sits up and stares at his screen intensely - this is the 1st sensible thing the Sass has ever written... **

In fact, the only scripture any refer to is the OT.

**.. bated breath**

The truth is that Paul relates to everyone the truth that anything written or said by anyone is to be judged by the OT.

**Where is she going with this??**

You are to ignore him and any other speaker where the words cannot be justified by the Old Testament.

**.. holds his breath**

Jesus is spoken about in the OT and according to Christ...

And there it is.. the disappointment! The shift from Jesus to the "Christ".

King James Bible
Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

All this talk about the OT and yet "quotes" the NT..

Jesus is the Son of God. Like Moses he represented God and made him known to us.

But Moses is not seen as "The Son of God", but then again Jesus could have been seen as a representative of his God during his "ministry", so I guess there is a smidgeon of "truth" in this statement.

King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


King James Bible
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

King James Bible
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Aww - I was hoping for some OT quotes here...

At no time did Christ call himself God. By calling himself the Son of God he then became equal in that he was like God.
The Sons of Gods the Angels are also without sin but they are not God.

So by following this logic, neither was Jesus a God.... 

It is the Spirit who reveals things to mankind. Christ clearly stated. " My words are spirit and they are life." Like all flesh they receive the word from God by the Power of Gods Holy Spirit.

Oooooo the Holy Ghost.. The holy ghost was my favourite at primary school. I called him "Casper", although like the "christ" it never became "flesh" for me!!

We know that the power of God for the believer is in the Spirit and the Spirit teaches the believer.

True, Spirits certainly taught me a few things... Spirits are good. Can I get this Spirit you speak of in Asda?

In Christ we are saved and in Gods anointing of the baptism receiving the Spirit, we have Gods mark on us to live as he has ordained. John is telling and warning people that Christ came in the flesh to fulfil the prophecy from God.

Emmmm I thought baptism was to cleanse this spirit/soul.. where exactly did God "ordain" this practice?

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.[/b] It clearly shows what Peter believed about Jesus.

Hang on - you were chatting about John, why quote "Acts"?

He believed the same things as I believe. God anointed Jesus (greater is he who anoints) with the Holy Ghost and with Power; who went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.

You quoted Acts, not John. Are you a bit confused? The writers had diametrically opposed Christologies!!

When the truth comes down to it... The OT does not confirm that Jesus was anything but a Prophet and the Son of God.
That God was with him.

Hang on..  As a 1st century Jew Jesus was already a Son of God.. and being a disciple of the Baptist was an apocalyptic prophet. **check**

Are you now claiming that there is nothing in the OT that relates to him being a "Christ" - Halleluiah - The blind do at last see!!

[Sassy]

MMM?!?!?!
Try & convince the Jews of this then as it's THEM Jesus came for initially, no ?!?!?

Nick

Trippy, either make a statement with evidence or bow out. It is obviously outside your area of expertise and knowledge.
Your answer does show that to be the case.

[Sassy]

Thanks for your reply, Sassy. I can't comment on all of it at the moment, but just to clarify, I do agree that Jesus is the Son of God. Also I noticed in this verse that we see the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit mentioned together. By the way you have read the verse, Jesus is distinct from God. However, if you read it this way then you also have to say that the Holy Spirit is distinct from God.

Doesn't the Holy Spirit become distinct from Both Christ and God the Father when Christ says:

King James Bible
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Even Christ makes a distinction when it comes to the Holy Spirit and Blasphemy. You can be forgiven all manner of sin and blasphemy except that which is against the Holy Spirit.

Which shows you are not thinking correctly when it comes to the persons which you refer to.
What you cannot do is make them One outside the teachings of Christ how God makes us all one in him and Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Need more time to think, Spud?

[Sassy]

Thrud:

Sassy: Jesus is spoken about in the OT and according to Christ...

And there it is.. the disappointment! The shift from Jesus to the "Christ".

Well which is it? Is the Messiah Spoken about in the OT? Doesn't Christ quote the OT as confirmation
as to whom he is?

What does he say to Johns disciples when they ask if he is the one or if their is still one to come?

King James Bible
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see,
the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed,
the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

Isaiah 35:5. (4-6)
King James Bible
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.

So sometimes I give you too much credit... See how you have not really studied the connections of what Christ does and did.
How the OT tells of him doing what he did. Proof of who he is through the Prophets.

Thrud...
But Moses is not seen as "The Son of God", but then again Jesus could have been seen as a representative of his God during his
 "ministry",
 so I guess there is a smidgeon of "truth" in this statement.

More than a smidgeon...

King James Bible
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Look carefully at that verse... Then read Dueteronomy 18:15-21.

Christ reveals God to us by being like God is. We see God in Jesus, his love, his compassion and his truth.
It is really all about being able to put the NT into the OLD without the OT knowledge then those needing to search cannot find.
But the new way of Christ the New Covenant read Jeremiah 31:31-34. See the difference and understanding it brings to Christ as
saviour.

Quote:Thrud
Aww - I was hoping for some OT quotes here...

But you can't see my face, because no one may see me and live."

It is something that is not clearly understood. You can be in the presence of God and not see his face.
If the bible is true that God is omnipresent in all places at all times it means that there is a difference between seeing Gods
face and seeing his presence.

So by following this logic, neither was Jesus a God.... 

King James Bible
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

What does it mean to be a god?

We can all do as Christ did, and he made known God the creator and Father of mankind.
We can all do as he did by the power of GOD. So in fact being Children of God we become one with God.
Individuals whose lives are transformed but who remain who we are in Christ.

We both know that even with the power to cast mountains into the sea we will never be the Most high God.
Note why Jesus is called the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest
 shall overshadow thee:
 therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

We should not confuse being god-like with being the most high God.

Oooooo the Holy Ghost.. The holy ghost was my favourite at primary school. I called him "Casper",
 although like the "christ" it never became "flesh" for me!!

Again as a spirit why would it become flesh?
It is with our Spirit we know God and that is what causes the change in our flesh.
How can you understand something you have no really knowledge about?


I have missed chunks of your post because we both know how silly you were being.
Ask straightforward questions and omit the mockary. You might learn something..

[floo]

Sass, with each post you just drop yourself in the mire over and over again, it is so sad you just can't see that for yourself.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just out of interest, did anyone manage to support the assertion in the OP with something more sensible than, "because a book says so"?

So Daniel Dennett says so trumps that does it.

Books say many things I've found to be true.....Why have you got it in for books these days?

[Stranger]

Just out of interest, did anyone manage to support the assertion in the OP with something more sensible than, "because a book says so"?

[inane comment]

Books say many things I've found to be true.....Why have you got it in for books these days?

You really don't have the first clue about logic, do you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

[inane comment]

Books say many things I've found to be true.....Why have you got it in for books these days?


You really don't have the first clue about logic, do you?

You have to find that God is true. What you quaintly refer to as logic doesn't conjur God up.

But come on hotshot, Use logic to demonstrate philosophical naturalism.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

You really don't have the first clue about logic, do you?

Not a clue. Welcome to the mendaciously disordered mind of Trollboy. He's "found" things in books to be true, though presumably he found that not just because the book said so - which is precisely Sassy's problem when her only answer to the OP is endlessly to quote chunks from a book.

[Stranger]

You have to find that God is true.

No, I don't.

What you quaintly refer to as logic doesn't conjur God up.

Soooo, your god cannot be found with logic. Okay.

None of which has anything to do with the absurd inference in the post to which I was responding.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

It's up to you to respond or not to Trollboy, but just by way of a head up he's invented his own meaning for "philosophical naturalism" too and it's that version rather then the real one he's asking you to demonstrate. The basic plan is that you get so frustrated watching him duck and dive to arrive at a coherent definition of the term that you fail to notice the has no method of any kind to demonstrate his "god".

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Some,

Not a clue. Welcome to the mendaciously disordered mind of Trollboy. He's "found" things in books to be true, though presumably he found that not just because the book said so - which is precisely Sassy's problem when her only answer to the OP is endlessly to quote chunks from a book.

Yes Hillside things in books like definitions for instance. They are in books and yet you have a record of disregarding them and coming up with your own definitions.

Run your definition of scientism and philosophical materialism past us again.

[Stranger]

Not a clue. Welcome to the mendaciously disordered mind of Trollboy. He's "found" things in books to be true, though presumably he found that not just because the book said so - which is precisely Sassy's problem when her only answer to the OP is endlessly to quote chunks from a book.

Exactly: he seems to have tried to answer the argument:

Because a book says so is not sufficient grounds to regard something as true.

With

There are some true things in books.

I can't imagine the mental contortions necessary to actually think that was an answer....

[bluehillside Retd.]

Some,

Soooo, your god cannot be found with logic. Okay.

It's an odd position isn't it: "I've been visited by a god. I know this because I have a really strong opinion on the matter, but I have no interest in eliminating any of the alternative but non-divine explanations for the episode. Nor can I make a logically sound argument for the existence of this god. You have not been visited by this god, but you must take my assertion on the matter as meaning that "He" is real for you too".

When you cut through the endless lies, evasions and avoidances that - literally - is all he has  the locker.

[Stranger]

But come on hotshot, Use logic to demonstrate philosophical naturalism.

Why?