Industrial action threat over academies

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, class size is one  important factor, but the quality of the individual teacher is the most vital.

To which the reply is, of course, what teachers? Apparently our societal witch hunt against teachers, the public lust for giving "Old chalky" six of the best has led to a dearth of suckers lining up to be abused....................Sorry, trainee teachers.

[L.A.]

If you have a society subscribing to the myth that what's wrong with public service education is schools and teachers and that is ultimately realised in an increase of abuse by slummocky, pony tailed and pyjamad slob parents the  option of saying alright try education without us always a possibility.

We are an unthinking and ungrateful country at our peril.

I don't think alienating parents is going to improve education in any way and I don't think striking helps improve the perceived professionalism of teachers.

[L.A.]

To which the reply is, of course, what teachers? Apparently our societal witch hunt against teachers, the public lust for giving "Old chalky" six of the best has led to a dearth of suckers lining up to be abused....................Sorry, trainee teachers.

You have obviously got quite a chip on your shoulder Jonique, possibly you are in the wrong job?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't think alienating parents is going to improve education in any way and I don't think striking helps improve the perceived professionalism of teachers.

Unfortunately if you abuse your wife and husband they will make a stand to stop the abuse before leaving you altogether.

That is unfortunately the  analogy of the publics relationship with its public services.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You have obviously got quite a chip on your shoulder Jonique, possibly you are in the wrong job?

I don't think I said what job I'm in.
I could have said exactly the same thing about the NHS, social care and possibly the police service as well.

[L.A.]

I don't think I said what job I'm in.
I could have said exactly the same thing about the NHS, social care and possibly the police service as well.

I think someone with your attitude is in the wrong job . . . whatever it is.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't think alienating parents is going to improve education in any way and I don't think striking helps improve the perceived professionalism of teachers.

I don't think you can necessarily conclude that parents are being alienated by the suggested action, nor that the perceived professionalism will be undermined. There will be many, many parents who fully support the teachers and their actions.

To use an analogy I don't think junior doctors have alienated patients nor has their professionalism been undermined by their recent actions - quite the reverse, they are seen as standing up for patients and the NHS against the government.

[L.A.]

I don't think you can necessarily conclude that parents are being alienated by the suggested action, nor that the perceived professionalism will be undermined. There will be many, many parents who fully support the teachers and their actions.

I am genuinely puzzled by attitude of the head teachers. I am aware of many of the problem that face teaching today but as far as I can see academy status would give heads more power to deal with them.

To use an analogy I don't think junior doctors have alienated patients nor has their professionalism been undermined by their recent actions - quite the reverse, they are seen as standing up for patients and the NHS against the government.

Apparently a very different situation (unless you take the view that industrial action generally is being whipped up by the far left)

Junior doctors have enjoyed public support so far, thought I suspect that 'good will' is wearing a bit thin for those who have had operations postponed.

According to the BBC (not generally considered a far right organisation) - the only area of disagreement between the two sides is payments for Saturday working. So when the doctors complain that the new contract would force them to work excessive hours either they are lying or they would be quite happy to work excessive hours if they had a bit more cash.

They are NOT striking to protect patient safety, they are striking for money.

Once the public realise this simple fact, they will start to become very isolated.

[Hope]

I am genuinely puzzled by attitude of the head teachers. I am aware of many of the problem that face teaching today but as far as I can see academy status would give heads more power to deal with them.

Unlikely.  The heads wll still be under the control of either a local controlling body or, in the case of a chain of academies, an overarching body which is neither local nor responsive to local contexts.  At least LEAs were in a better position to react to local contexts.

Apparently a very different situation (unless you take the view that industrial action generally is being whipped up by the far left)

Junior doctors have enjoyed public support so far, thought I suspect that 'good will' is wearing a bit thin for those who have had operations postponed.

According to the BBC (not generally considered a far right organisation) - the only area of disagreement between the two sides is payments for Saturday working. So when the doctors complain that the new contract would force them to work excessive hours either they are lying or they would be quite happy to work excessive hours if they had a bit more cash.

They are NOT striking to protect patient safety, they are striking for money.

Once the public realise this simple fact, they will start to become very isolated.

Couldn't agree more, LA.  The junior doctors' issue is a completely different animal.

[Harrowby Hall]

Unlikely.  The heads wll still be under the control of either a local controlling body or, in the case of a chain of academies, an overarching body which is neither local nor responsive to local contexts.  At least LEAs were in a better position to react to local contexts.
Couldn't agree more, LA.  The junior doctors' issue is a completely different animal.

I am in agreement with Hope, here. The academisation of schools will make schools less responsive to local needs. It will reduce significantly the influence of parents and other local stakeholders. Academisation is a very strange response to calls for decentralisation of government services. To me, it seems part of a bizarre philosophy which believes that "the market" is the most effective manager.

Incidentally, I heard an academic saying that the government's rationale for restructuring the contracts of junior doctors - to remove the increased likelihood of patient death at weekends - is a fallacy. But when did any government allow fact to get in the way of political dogma?

[ProfessorDavey]

They are NOT striking to protect patient safety, they are striking for money.

Once the public realise this simple fact, they will start to become very isolated.

The two are of course related - impose a contract with poorer conditions and pay and expect that limited pool of doctors to maintain levels of provision over a 7 day period that are currently only provided over 5 days (with of course 7 day emergency and critical care provision) and you will see junior doctors off to other places where pay and conditions are better, making the situation worse. The government has not address where this additional medical professional resource is going to come from for the 7 day approach - you cannot just magic doctors out of thin air. And all of this affects patient safety.

And on the public, well this dispute has been going on for months with huge amounts of publicity over the issues. Doesn't seem as if the majority of public agree with your assessment of the dispute, nor is there any sign (e.g. from polling) of loss of support for the doctors.

[Shaker]

... on the public, well this dispute has been going on for months with huge amounts of publicity over the issues. Doesn't seem as if the majority of public agree with your assessment of the dispute, nor is there any sign (e.g. from polling) of loss of support for the doctors.

http://goo.gl/eWRGmh

https://goo.gl/hN9Sas

[L.A.]

Incidentally, I heard an academic saying that the government's rationale for restructuring the contracts of junior doctors - to remove the increased likelihood of patient death at weekends - is a fallacy. But when did any government allow fact to get in the way of political dogma?

There was an interesting 'More or Less' on the subject some time ago, and I agree that the statistics are not as clear-cut as the government would have us believe. For example, hospitals generally try to send fit patients home for the weekend leaving the sickest (who are most likely to die).

Never the less, there are good reasons for 7 day working. For example better utilization of resources, and (if we are to believe the BBC) the only thing that is stopping the junior doctors agreeing to the new deal is cash for Saturday working.

[ProfessorDavey]

There was an interesting 'More or Less' on the subject some time ago, and I agree that the statistics are not as clear-cut as the government would have us believe. For example, hospitals generally try to send fit patients home for the weekend leaving the sickest (who are most likely to die).

Never the less, there are good reasons for 7 day working. For example better utilization of resources, and (if we are to believe the BBC) the only thing that is stopping the junior doctors agreeing to the new deal is cash for Saturday working.

Of course there are good reasons for 7 day working, but that can only be realised with substantial increase in resource - you cannot have a fully operational 7 day service with the same resources (most critically professional staff) that are required for a full 5 day service and a partial weekend service.

Most of what I have seen from the doctors has been on the concerns about stretching a limited resource (doctors) across a full 7 day service. That the doctors are being expected to substantial increase their workload (which is dangerous both to the doctors and critically to patients) while suffering reduced pay and other conditions is putting salt on the wound.

[L.A.]

Most of what I have seen from the doctors has been on the concerns about stretching a limited resource (doctors) across a full 7 day service. That the doctors are being expected to substantial increase their workload (which is dangerous both to the doctors and critically to patients) while suffering reduced pay and other conditions is putting salt on the wound.

Again, I have to say, if we are to believe the BBC, that isn't the sticking point in the negotiations.

And they aren't getting reduced pay, they are getting a smaller increase than they would like for the increased proportion of unsocial hours.

[Hope]

Of course there are good reasons for 7 day working, but that can only be realised with substantial increase in resource - you cannot have a fully operational 7 day service with the same resources (most critically professional staff) that are required for a full 5 day service and a partial weekend service.

Most of what I have seen from the doctors has been on the concerns about stretching a limited resource (doctors) across a full 7 day service. That the doctors are being expected to substantial increase their workload (which is dangerous both to the doctors and critically to patients) while suffering reduced pay and other conditions is putting salt on the wound.

If this is the case, the junior doctors don't seem to putting their case very well.  Whenever I've heard any of their spokesfolk speak, it has ultimately come down to pay.  They will sometimes even accept that the workload argument is a smoke screen.

I fully agree that there will be need to increase workloads in the early days - that happened in teaching when the idea of Teachers' Aide and Learning Support Assistants was first suggested - such folk had to be trained to fulfil those roles and in the meantime many teachers ended up working more than they had to justify the changes.