Author Topic: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?  (Read 3696 times)

Bubbles

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Is it over tolerance of differing opinions morals and life styles.? ( i.e. pandering to views we don't personally agree with)

Or people trying to make morals values and laws all the same?

I've put my opinions on the vile views thread and notice no one has challenged me so thought it might be interesting to see if people thought a greater good could come of tolerating a wider scope of views or more harm.

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Lots of people think that different things are bad for society.

Being hateful takes a bit more than that.

An example would be a Muslim women wearing a niquab for modesty.

We have quite a few of those, near me.

I could get offended that they think my form of dressing is immodest and it might well be some of them see my values as being bad for society.

That's their opinion.

What people think is bad for society is almost always offensive to the group it is aimed at.

I achieve nothing by hating back. If she holds that opinion but accepts I don't and doesn't take it further it's just an opinion.



If you take out the emotion, the things that matter IMO are that such views are not dictated in society,  passed as laws, to the harm of various groups in society.

I guess I'm a bit strange in that I would argue for your right to live as you do without harrassment, but also for Hope to hold his opinion or the Muslim woman to think my dress is immoral and her right to wear a niquab.

I think it more important to choose my battles.

I don't worry because they hold that opinion, I worry more in case they get to victimise groups of people because of it.

Which although I have never argued or really considered the idea  for a separation of religion and state, I can see it could be a good idea on some fronts.

I don't believe in making everyone the same, or battling to make people the same.

I think I believe in diversity of opinion rather than one right way of seeing things.

I do see that we do need to protect society and groups within it from becoming persecuted by certain opinions becoming law.

I think because I believe in diversity, rather than conformity, it can often make it seem I always agree with those I appear to be defending, but that isn't always so.

I think that's why I am more tolerant of views others find vile.  ???

Conformity is what groups like Isis do.

I'd rather people just agreed to disagree and stopped trying to make everyone else the same and hold the same POV.

We don't need laws to tell us what to think, just to control undesirable behaviour that is hateful.




It's a much broader subject than homosexuality.

It can encompass things like dress, food we eat....

IMO a pagan , Muslim and Christian should be able to live their relative lives in a way they think they should without interfering with others ( harming is to subjective a word)
I would argue that conformity is what Isis does, forcing everyone to match their ideas of how society should be and morals etc.

Because those things are subjective and different groups put forward different things, everyone thinks their own version is right.

History is littered with various ideas being rammed down people's throats to make them conform.

I propose the way forward is a tolerance of diverse views ( even when we personally don't like them) rather than tutting at women in burkas because it's their version of modesty rather than our own.

Obviously you need laws to cover the main things like murder, stealing and bullying and to stop the implication of any laws opposed to the maintenance of diversity and differences of opinion.

( sharia law forced on people is against diversity, for example) 

I thought it might be interesting to throw it open to the many diverse opinions on just about everything in the uk.

I think the danger is people forcing compliance and conformity on others, the religious or non religious ideology behind it, isn't the problem.

It's the attempts to make people conform to one set of morality and values that is.

Obviously you have to have a basic set of laws to protect everyone, no matter what opinions they hold.

Anyway feel free to disagree  :)


« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 01:09:42 PM by Rose »

Brownie

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 01:28:14 PM »
Rose:  ''IMO a pagan , Muslim and Christian should be able to live their relative lives in a way they think they should without interfering with others ( harming is to subjective a word).''

That illustrates respect, something which must be encouraged in children.  I hesitate to use the word ''indoctrinate'' :) - but I encouraged it in my one child and from what I've read, Rhi has brought her children up that way, so has floo.  I am like that myself.

''I would argue that conformity is what Isis does, forcing everyone to match their ideas of how society should be and morals etc.''

Agree with you Rose, also what you said about the law towards the end of your post, which ties in with this:  ''We don't need laws to tell us what to think, just to control undesirable behaviour that is hateful''.

I believe we are freethinkers Rose and will say so on floo's (I think it's hers) thread about freethought.  Would that everyone felt as we do  ;) ;).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 01:37:45 PM by Brownie »
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ekim

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 03:03:17 PM »
I'm not sure what you are getting at in your post.  If it's freedom to have diverse opinions and thoughts, I don't see how this can be curtailed anyway, provided that they are kept personal to the individual.  What tends to happen is that the more forceful individuals seek to persuade others to adopt a similar view and take action upon it and this may come into conflict with other opposing views.  The democratic idea is that the minority view submits to the majority view or policy and a policy force, or police force as we call it, keeps law and order in accordance with the majority view.

Jack Knave

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 07:42:44 PM »
Lack of social and collective cohesion. Lack of proper family groups and a common cultural identity. Our societies are not providing the basic psychological grounding that human beings require.

Hope

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 09:14:25 PM »
If it's freedom to have diverse opinions and thoughts, I don't see how this can be curtailed anyway, provided that they are kept personal to the individual.
What are the chances, on a discussion/debating board like this, that opinions will be 'kept personal to the individual'?  Isn't sharing of and jousting over opinions the purpose of such sites?
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Brownie

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 09:36:06 PM »
Lack of social and collective cohesion. Lack of proper family groups and a common cultural identity. Our societies are not providing the basic psychological grounding that human beings require.

Who says?
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ekim

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2016, 10:42:26 AM »
What are the chances, on a discussion/debating board like this, that opinions will be 'kept personal to the individual'?  Isn't sharing of and jousting over opinions the purpose of such sites?
Yes, I was trying to sum up what I thought the opening post was about.  There are thoughts and opinions, there are opportunities to share them with others and there are actions taken to follow up upon those opinions.  It's the follow up actions which generally cause the conflict within a society, especially if that society is built upon well established principles (opinions).  As regards the virtual world of this discussion site, there is, perhaps, little chance of any real damage being done to its individuals, but having said that, there are rules to contain the discussion and people can be banned if they disregard those rules.  If the site was a paedophile site with no restrictions then subsequent actions resulting from their opinions could be serious.

The opening post contained this: 'I guess I'm a bit strange in that I would argue for your right to live as you do without harassment, but also for Hope to hold his opinion or the Muslim woman to think my dress is immoral and her right to wear a niquab.'  Should 'the right to live as you do' apply to wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit?  Should the right to wear a burqa apply if it conflicts with 'Health and Safety' legislation?  Should travellers and gypsies have the right to move into any public car park or farmer's field and fill them with rubbish and move on?

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2016, 01:58:59 PM »
I think the high cost of living and the lack of time for yourself are the biggest causes of stress in society. People find they can't afford to meet their basic needs and they look for someone to blame. They also have higher expectations than previous generations so have more to complain about when those expectations are inevitably disappointed due to lack of resources or time. 

In terms of individualism - I suppose that people want the right to be individuals, and part of that is the right to have different goals and experience pleasure in different ways - what makes one person happy could be a form of torture for someone else.

Part of the issue is that some people do not want their family and community exposed to alternative cultural information and influences that they feel are bad. So in trying to control this exposure, they end up coming into conflict with people who hold a different view. The alternative is to let people have exposure to all kinds of influences and let them make up their own minds - but because many people feel so much personal emotional investment in their families and friends and communities, it is difficult to become detached about your members of your family holding values or exhibiting behaviour you find wrong, or being detached about other people doing something that you think will have a negative impact on your family. Especially as people have a higher expectation than previous generations that they should be accepted and included - so being detached and cutting yourself off from families and communities if you disagree with their values is often frowned upon. If you are discouraged from excluding people then your other option is to try to persuade them to your way of thinking - the difference in opinion can lead to conflict if people take it personally.
 
I think another part of the issue could be that people are rewarded in different ways for the add-value they bring to the table - and there are diverse ways that people can add-value but only so long as someone exists who finds value in what an individual has to offer. Life is a bit like ebay - someone somewhere wants to take a chance and buy what you are selling but you might not always get the price you want or you and the right buyer might miss each other because of all the other buyers and sellers in the market.

Being told that what you have to offer is not valued enough to reward you as much as someone else will be rewarded causes resentment and could sometimes lead to anti-social behaviour.

For example, as a parent I love my kids equally but my impression is that one of my kids adds more value to my household than the other - I am not talking about economic value, I mean effectiveness in completing useful tasks for the house, willingness to work hard, push your limits, organisation skills, self-discipline, pragmatic, good negotiation skills, less input from me to follow up on tasks being completed. The other kid is wittier, funnier, more creative and kinder but also lazier, messier, disorganised and guided more by their emotions.

I get more add-value from the industrious, organised one because I am a results-orientated person. Someone else will feel they get more add-value from the kinder, gentler, more creative one. I often reward according to perceived add-value to me - not consciously - but if tasks are completed I agree to requests made of me and don't have time to do a detailed analysis of the "justice"or implications of it all, which means the creative child sometimes feels resentful.

Maybe that is reflected in wider society - people feel resentful because they feel they are not valued enough but either don't have the opportunity or motivation to acquire the skills that would make them be perceived as more valuable, or don't know how to find the people who concur with them on what they think they are worth.


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ekim

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 05:02:58 PM »
.... and to add to Gabriella's contribution, I would say that the ever increasing world population and its impact upon natural resources will feed in to any differences of opinion and perhaps magnify them.

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Brownie

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 08:18:27 PM »
A Social Science bod?
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Jack Knave

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 08:33:08 PM »
A Social Science bod?
No, I saw what I wanted to see in the OP (title) and responded to that.

The real answer is multiculturalism and a strange mix of Leftie policies and Neo-Liberal corporatism. But it has all been implemented by the financial sector.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 08:37:58 PM by Jack Knave »

Sassy

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 09:04:06 AM »
I think the high cost of living and the lack of time for yourself are the biggest causes of stress in society. People find they can't afford to meet their basic needs and they look for someone to blame. They also have higher expectations than previous generations so have more to complain about when those expectations are inevitably disappointed due to lack of resources or time. 

The great unrest of Great Britain... not enough for our own so why add to the burden by bringing others in?
We have come too far too soon. If Britain returned to just tv and got rid of everything else.... whatever would the companies do when no one buying and selling any longer?

As a Christian everything on the planet belongs to God and everyone had the right to eat and live.
Do we really need all the media hype?


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In terms of individualism - I suppose that people want the right to be individuals, and part of that is the right to have different goals and experience pleasure in different ways - what makes one person happy could be a form of torture for someone else.

Part of the issue is that some people do not want their family and community exposed to alternative cultural information and influences that they feel are bad. So in trying to control this exposure, they end up coming into conflict with people who hold a different view. The alternative is to let people have exposure to all kinds of influences and let them make up their own minds - but because many people feel so much personal emotional investment in their families and friends and communities, it is difficult to become detached about your members of your family holding values or exhibiting behaviour you find wrong, or being detached about other people doing something that you think will have a negative impact on your family. Especially as people have a higher expectation than previous generations that they should be accepted and included - so being detached and cutting yourself off from families and communities if you disagree with their values is often frowned upon. If you are discouraged from excluding people then your other option is to try to persuade them to your way of thinking - the difference in opinion can lead to conflict if people take it personally.

When in Rome!!!! But the Governments believe by forcing people together - wars will stop.
By mixing us all up like at the tower of babel we shall all become on multi nation with one money, no religion and no choices but to exist as we do without a real life being told what to do.
There power will become our prison.

 
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I think another part of the issue could be that people are rewarded in different ways for the add-value they bring to the table - and there are diverse ways that people can add-value but only so long as someone exists who finds value in what an individual has to offer. Life is a bit like ebay - someone somewhere wants to take a chance and buy what you are selling but you might not always get the price you want or you and the right buyer might miss each other because of all the other buyers and sellers in the market.

What about when the right to buy and sell becomes about buying only that which you need to live?
When you cannot buy and sell without a mark?
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Being told that what you have to offer is not valued enough to reward you as much as someone else will be rewarded causes resentment and could sometimes lead to anti-social behaviour.

When you are told what to think, feel and believe?

What you propose and suggest above has no real relevance because people now and the time of Noah will always do their own thing. They don't care or won't care enough about anti-social behaviour because there will be police states.

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For example, as a parent I love my kids equally but my impression is that one of my kids adds more value to my household than the other - I am not talking about economic value, I mean effectiveness in completing useful tasks for the house, willingness to work hard, push your limits, organisation skills, self-discipline, pragmatic, good negotiation skills, less input from me to follow up on tasks being completed. The other kid is wittier, funnier, more creative and kinder but also lazier, messier, disorganised and guided more by their emotions.

I thought kids were to be valued for who they are not what they can bring or acheive.
My children are not about moods, creativeness or tasks performed. They are my children, they never asked to be born and my responsibility. The best I can do is raise them to be self-respecting loving and hopeful people who treat others as they want to be treated and are not cruel but kind.

I value their individual personalities but I love them equally and dearly.



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I get more add-value from the industrious, organised one because I am a results-orientated person. Someone else will feel they get more add-value from the kinder, gentler, more creative one. I often reward according to perceived add-value to me - not consciously - but if tasks are completed I agree to requests made of me and don't have time to do a detailed analysis of the "justice"or implications of it all, which means the creative child sometimes feels resentful.

Only in your home and only by your own standards and ways.
My thoughts for my children who are now adults has always been about making them successful and active adults within their own lives and the community. It is to value themselves and others merely as humans the starting point.
It is to word hard to achieve what they want and not be put off.



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Maybe that is reflected in wider society - people feel resentful because they feel they are not valued enough but either don't have the opportunity or motivation to acquire the skills that would make them be perceived as more valuable, or don't know how to find the people who concur with them on what they think they are worth.

Value of themselves should never be placed on what society or others think of them.
Skills do not make a person valuable or perceived as giving worth or value to individuals.
How a person lives in society and treats their fellow man will decide how successful they are or will become.
People skills are the most important skills a person can gain and are most useful when dealing with human beings from all walks of life.  Self belief is very important a belief which is about confidence and honesty.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Owlswing

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »

What are the chances, on a discussion/debating board like this, that opinions will be 'kept personal to the individual'?  Isn't sharing of and jousting over opinions the purpose of such sites?


Sharing? Jousting? On a board liike this?

Are you joking?

Take a look at the postings on this forum over the last month, as I had to as I had no way of posting to it, I had no home internet connection and the Library computers woukd not allow connection to discussion forums; Virtually every single thread, regardless of how it started out ended up as a 'Gang of Four against all the others' stalemate. One side trying to discuss/explain and the other standing behind an insuperable pile of dogma and biblical rhetoric and, where necessary, pure unadulterated nonsense.

Were it not for the fact that, for the most part, I am now virtiually housebound I would have given up.

This situation, no matter how hard everyone else tries to change it, will continue to flounder of the sandbank of the Gang of Four and their occassional supporters with whom discussion is virtually impossible.
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torridon

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 10:00:11 AM »
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What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?

Climate change and population growth, to name two underlying driver dynamics.

The world is currently witnessing the largest migration of humans in the history of this planet.  War and poverty are underlying drivers causing people to flee their homelands, and both of these are in turn driven by population growth and the resulting increasing conflicts over resources.  I don't see these problems getting any easier in the short or medium term, quite the reverse, in fact.

Udayana

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2016, 10:19:11 AM »
At the moment there are enough resources to keep the world population fed and housed. We have the means to keep population growth and climate change to within manageable limits. We have potential solutions to future food, energy and water requirements. We have the ability to communicate and share information worldwide in minutes. We have the ability to protect and conserve other animal and plant species.

The problems are caused by human greed and psychology.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ekim

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2016, 10:23:16 AM »
Climate change and population growth, to name two underlying driver dynamics.

The world is currently witnessing the largest migration of humans in the history of this planet.  War and poverty are underlying drivers causing people to flee their homelands, and both of these are in turn driven by population growth and the resulting increasing conflicts over resources.  I don't see these problems getting any easier in the short or medium term, quite the reverse, in fact.
Yes, I agree and  was what I was getting at in Msg 8.  I think there will be greater investment in the means of mass control of populations.

torridon

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2016, 10:59:01 AM »
At the moment there are enough resources to keep the world population fed and housed. We have the means to keep population growth and climate change to within manageable limits. We have potential solutions to future food, energy and water requirements. We have the ability to communicate and share information worldwide in minutes. We have the ability to protect and conserve other animal and plant species.

The problems are caused by human greed and psychology.

I don't think we can model current stresses in society in terms of greed and psychology - these are (more or less) unchanging universals.  If more people are on the move now, it is not because humans are suddenly becoming more greedy, it is more about how changing circumstances play out against our psychology.

And whilst there might be enough resources to feed and house everyone, a fair distribution of resources would see our slice of the cake very much diminished; it is natural that everyone wants a better life - people without wealth seek more of it; people with wealth want to keep it, these are natural tendencies.  But pressure is growing on us through remorseless population growth and increasing resource scarcity; this is compounded by increasing global awareness of inequity thanks to the internet and better global communications.

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Re: What has caused and is causing the greatest problems in society?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2016, 11:38:03 AM »
I agree that the progression to this point has been "natural". However it is humans that cause the population growth and resource scarcity, not something external to us or even beyond our abilities to control. we are not suffering the effects of any massive environmental event such as an ice age or asteroid or comet strike, or even a super-volcano.

It may be that we decide that these problems are not worth solving or we adopt sub-optimal solutions.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now