Author Topic: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?  (Read 48107 times)

Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2016, 04:49:49 PM »
OK, so you're saying that the various letters in the NT don't apply to anyone now as they were written to certain people who were around at a particular time?
Khat, I have seldom found so many people as here lately who have been unable to understand plain English.  Of course that isn't what I was saying.
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Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2016, 05:00:13 PM »
You don't have a sound argument Hope - fallacious arguments can simply be rejected, but you haven't quite grasped this.
That's largely why I reject yours, Gordon.

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Nope the argument here isn't about validity: the monarchy is valid in legal and constitutional terms. The debate is about its fitness for purpose and whether it is morally acceptable in democratic terms.
And, as I said, no-one has come up with a convincing argument for saying that its current validity within those parameters is wrong.

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I'm not arguing there in no God: I'm arguing that the arguments support the claim of 'God' are fallacious and can therefore be dismissed: not the same thing.
Yet there are those who would claim to have started from your POV and - following study and research, decided that it is an invalid POV.  How do you answer them>

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It has you know!
If that's the case, why do you seem so keen to use the same type of argument against me? 
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Shaker

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2016, 05:06:49 PM »
That's largely why I reject yours, Gordon.
Demonstrate Gordon's arguments to be fallacious. It's been done with yours more times now than the forum's search function can cope with. 
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And, as I said, no-one has come up with a convincing argument for saying that its current validity within those parameters is wrong.
This is what you earlier called that "fallacious rubbish," which is what rational people (i.e. not you) call a fallacy in reasoning, i.e. the sort of thing that you're shit scared of touching with a bargepole, preferring to do the Hope two-step, i.e. a hasty and resoundingly silent retreat from the fray.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 05:12:01 PM by Shaker »
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Shaker

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2016, 05:09:17 PM »
Khat, I have seldom found so many people as here lately who have been unable to understand plain English.
Hope, I have never ever found anyone as unable to grasp elementary logical fallacies as you.
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Gordon

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2016, 05:19:23 PM »
That's largely why I reject yours, Gordon.

Super - then you'll highlight any logical fallacies I've commited: on you go then.

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And, as I said, no-one has come up with a convincing argument for saying that its current validity within those parameters is wrong.

Yet again you get it wrong by misrepresenting what I said: that the monarchy is 'invalid' isn't my position.

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Yet there are those who would claim to have started from your POV and - following study and research, decided that it is an invalid POV.  How do you answer them>

By asking them to cite their research: remember I used to earn my living dealing with academic research so I'm quite happy to critique any research they cite. So, got any references?

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If that's the case, why do you seem so keen to use the same type of argument against me?

I'm not, fallacies are your speciality: not mine.

Khatru

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2016, 05:35:00 PM »
Khat, I have seldom found so many people as here lately who have been unable to understand plain English.  Of course that isn't what I was saying.

Just trying to be 100% clear on what you're saying. 🙂

OK then...how about this?

What you're saying is the letters are applicable but only to those who embrace Christianity and its god as their deity of choice?
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2016, 07:03:55 PM »
Before you go into all the 'fallacy' rubbish that you and others like to use as a means of avoiding the question - you and I can cast doubt on anything, but until we produce the evidence to show that that doubt is valid, the 'anything' remains valid.


No. You have this completely backwards.

1) Someone makes a claim.

2) We don't know whether or not the claim is true.

3) We put it in the bucket labelled undemonstrated.

4) It stays in the undemonstrated bucket until it is shown to be more likely true than not.

If you put it into the demonstrated bucket straight away and insist that arguments are required to move it to the undemonstrated one you will end up hopelessly confused. You will certainly end up holding contradictory claims to be true.


bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2016, 07:11:01 PM »
Stephen,

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No. You have this completely backwards.

1) Someone makes a claim.

2) We don't know whether or not the claim is true.

3) We put it in the bucket labelled undemonstrated.

4) It stays in the undemonstrated bucket until it is shown to be more likely true than not.

If you put it into the demonstrated bucket straight away and insist that arguments are required to move it to the undemonstrated one you will end up hopelessly confused. You will certainly end up holding contradictory claims to be true.

It's actually even worse than that. He implies that the inability to invalidate the claim in some unexplained way validates its presence in the demonstrated bucket - though curiously he seems not to extend the same status to the incalculable number of other such conjectures, leprechauns included.

Hope is notorious for clinging to the negative proof fallacy as a man might cling to a plutonium parachute, no matter how many times and how patiently his mistake is explained to him. It's all very rum, but there it is nonetheless.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2016, 07:25:17 PM »
clinging to the negative proof fallacy as a man might cling to a plutonium parachute,
How about ''clinging to the NPF as a man might cling to a Leprechaun''?

jeremyp

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2016, 07:53:02 PM »
No, in the same way that drink-drive laws potentially apply to all the nation - ie anyone can be stopped and breathalysed
Pedantic point: In the UK, you can only be stopped and breathalysed if the police think you have been drinking or you have been stopped for a traffic office or been in an accident.

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God's laws able to everyone, but generally only those who are Christians (or Jews - in regard to the 10 Commandments) who are immediately answerable to them.
If God's laws are meant to apply to me, it's time you provided some verifiable evidence of his existence.
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ippy

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2016, 08:53:33 PM »
That's largely why I reject yours, Gordon.
And, as I said, no-one has come up with a convincing argument for saying that its current validity within those parameters is wrong.
Yet there are those who would claim to have started from your POV and - following study and research, decided that it is an invalid POV.  How do you answer them>
If that's the case, why do you seem so keen to use the same type of argument against me?

OK Hope, I'll treat you as someone who's comments needn't be regarded with any value; that would be if I hadn't got a reasonably good sense of humor.

Now this negative proof fallacy Hope, how come you haven't been able to come to terms/understand it yet, I can hardly believe that you, apparently, still haven't got it, when it's been explained to you so many, many times, at length? 

ippy

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2016, 08:58:53 PM »
Stephen,

It's actually even worse than that. He implies that the inability to invalidate the claim in some unexplained way validates its presence in the demonstrated bucket -

That is exactly what I was trying to point out.

Maybe I wasn't clear. You need something to move from the undemonstrated to demonstrated. Not the other way around.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2016, 09:23:19 PM »
Stephen,

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That is exactly what I was trying to point out.

Maybe I wasn't clear. You need something to move from the undemonstrated to demonstrated. Not the other way around.

Quite so. Bizarrely though, in Hope's case the non-falsifiability of a claim (in this case, "God") also actually in some as yet unexplained way validates putting it in the demonstrated box in the first place, and keeping it there too. It's not in other words just that he puts it there for no good reason, but rather it's the fact that others can't falsify that he thinks is forcing him to do so.

It really is as bonkers as that. Really.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 09:05:24 AM by bluehillside »
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Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2016, 10:06:42 PM »
Pedantic point: In the UK, you can only be stopped and breathalysed if the police think you have been drinking or you have been stopped for a traffic office or been in an accident.
Pedantic point - I mentioned that in the original post that used this analogy.  Now when was that posted? Several hours ago!! ;)

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If God's laws are meant to apply to me, it's time you provided some verifiable evidence of his existence.
Again you have misread what I've written.  In Hebrew thinking, the laws that God laid down in what we tend to call the Old Testament were relevant to them - but also for any who chose to live under their jurisdiction as a result of conversion.

The same goes for humanity.  As I've mentioned in pretty well every post I've made here, the teaching within the epistles was guidance for members of the church (the family of believers) as to how they ought to be relating to each other.  Since the message of Jesus, which provides the underpinning support for the Christian faith, was by his own teaching 'for the whole of humanity', those teachings are relevant to the rest of humanity in so far as they apply to anyone who joins the church.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 07:20:40 AM by Hope »
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Gordon

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2016, 11:10:22 PM »
Pedantic point - I mentioned that in the original post that used this analogy.  Now when was that posted? Several hours ago!! ;)
As I've mentioned in pretty well every post I've made here, the teaching within the epistles was guidance for members of the church (the family of believers) as to how they ought to be relating to each other.  Since the message of Jesus, which provides the underpinning support for the Christian faith, was by his own teaching 'for the whole of humanity', those teachings are relevant to the rest of humanity in so far as they apply to anyone who joins the church.

Then your 'whole of humanity' claim is wrong since it is grandiose to suggest that the 'whole of humanity' are potential Christians: this is not so!

Khatru

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2016, 12:59:58 PM »
  As I've mentioned in pretty well every post I've made here, the teaching within the epistles was guidance for members of the church (the family of believers) as to how they ought to be relating to each other.  Since the message of Jesus, which provides the underpinning support for the Christian faith, was by his own teaching 'for the whole of humanity', those teachings are relevant to the rest of humanity in so far as they apply to anyone who joins the church.

Ah yes and we know that one of those teachings is that women need to have babies if they wish to be saved from whatever grisly fate the Bible god has planned for them.
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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2016, 04:46:43 PM »
Ah yes and we know that one of those teachings is that women need to have babies if they wish to be saved from whatever grisly fate the Bible god has planned for them.

Yes, a particularly vile text, and incidentally, unquestionably not written by St Paul, but some much later geezer, who had great trouble with women's sexuality.
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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2016, 11:51:36 PM »
So where did Saul establish his "Churches"?

That should give you a clue as to who his letters were aimed at.


Now can you tell us why his "letters" were fired off to these particular churches and why these "dictates" are important to our understanding of what 'Saul' was preaching?
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Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2016, 06:59:23 AM »
Ah yes and we know that one of those teachings is that women need to have babies if they wish to be saved from whatever grisly fate the Bible god has planned for them.
Citation required, Khat
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Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2016, 07:04:52 AM »
Then your 'whole of humanity' claim is wrong since it is grandiose to suggest that the 'whole of humanity' are potential Christians: this is not so!
Gordon, Jesus gave the disciples the instructions - as recorded in the Great Commission - to go into 'all the world' and make disciples.  That means that the Gospel is available for all humanity to take advantage of.  I'm not saying that all will, but the potential for all to do so is there.  Are you trying to suggest that Jesus taught that access to it was to be restricted to specific people groups, socio-economic groups, etc?

There is nothing 'grandiose' in the claim.
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Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2016, 07:19:31 AM »
So where did Saul establish his "Churches"?

That should give you a clue as to who his letters were aimed at.


Now can you tell us why his "letters" were fired off to these particular churches and why these "dictates" are important to our understanding of what 'Saul' was preaching?
Thrud, he wrote letters to churches that he hadn't established as well as those he had done.  If you read the letters, you will notice that in almost all of them, he is either writing in response to questions that a particular church had asked of him, or encouraging them to stick to the teaching that he and other people had given them when they were both first established and since that date.  He is also warning them to test any new teaching to see whether it fits with existing teaching; he also advises the churches that had been established in areas where other belief systems were prominent, or where immorality was rife, how they ought to be behaving amongst themselves and therefore standing out from the crowd around them.

Furthermore, some of these churches had relatively high proportions of 'ex-pat' Jewish members, others were predominaty Gentile in composition.  So, this mix of audience, the questions he has obviously been asked to respond to, etc. all give us a clue as to what his teaching is about.

The further fact that many of the issues that Jesus and the disciples/apostles addressed (and I include Paul in this category) are still live today - humanity hasn't changed that much over the centuries (for all the technological advantages we've made) - suggest that their teachings are still relevant.
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Gordon

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2016, 08:12:46 AM »
Gordon, Jesus gave the disciples the instructions - as recorded in the Great Commission - to go into 'all the world' and make disciples.  That means that the Gospel is available for all humanity to take advantage of.

So the story goes, but the claim is obviously grandiose if you are assuming that these alleged instructions are actually relevant on a planet-wide basis today. It is the same type of grandiosity that, for instance, sees the 'World Series' baseball tournament being competed for by clubs in North America only. You are reading to much into these anecdotes about what was, at the time the NT was written, a local religious phenomena, so that Christianity can be accused of over-reaching by claiming more than it reasonably can.

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I'm not saying that all will, but the potential for all to do so is there.  Are you trying to suggest that Jesus taught that access to it was to be restricted to specific people groups, socio-economic groups, etc?

I don't much care what Jesus allegedly 'taught', since these claims are ancient anecdotes that are indistinguishable from fiction anyway, I simply reject the notion that whatever he allegedly said, and however this has been interpreted by Christians ever since, that your particular religion is in reality relevant on a planet-wide basis: I'd have thought this was self-evident given the number of non-Christians there are.

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There is nothing 'grandiose' in the claim.

Don't be silly: you say that Christianity is 'for all humanity' - how much more grandiose can you get! You don't seem to be able to countenance that what is important to you guys isn't necessarily important to everyone else on planet Earth.

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2016, 08:26:53 AM »
Citation required, Khat

Disingenuous of you, Hope. If you don't know your holey book that well, you could always use a search engine....

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Hope

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2016, 09:06:12 AM »
Disingenuous of you, Hope.
No, not disingenuous, SK, just using the same means of debate as many others here who seem to have evidence placed in front of them day after day.  This particular passage has been alluded to several times on various threads over the months, but rarely a reference actually provided.  At least you seem to see the relavance of citations.

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A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
OK, what does the passage mean?  If we take the whole section that starts in verse 9 (not jumping in halfway through, as you have done), there are a number of points to be considered.  This section follows immediately after a section dealing with 'public worship' and it makes sense to read this section at least partially in that context.  It is clear from both that previous section, and historical account that women's status in the early church was a great deal freer than had been the case prior to the appearance of Christianity.  The suggestion is that some women were taking advantage of that in terms of the way they dressed - which the passage implies was extravagantly.  This was because the writer was more interested in their character shining out than their appearance doing the shining.    In a way, a lot of Floo's posts actually reiterate this underlying trait - be it for men or women.

As regards the centepiece of the passage as far as you are concerned - the bit about childbirth - there are a number of explanations that have done the rounds over the centuries.  One is your very literal, word-for-word explanation (an approach that is relatively alien to Jewish thinking and therefore comes low on any list); another is that Paul was simply highlighting the fact that pain in childbirth is the result of the Fall that was recorded - even if only as a theological exercise - in Genesis (after all, is it likely that the stretching that childbirth involves could NOT be painful); another that has done the rounds is that it is through Christ that salvation comes to women - not through men.  A fourth is that, since this whole section has had an emphasis on women, the role of men in a woman's salvation is pretty minimal - and if anything, a number of other passages suggest that believing women have a very important role insofar as their belief in Christ's saving grace is imputed to their menfolk.  As I say, there are a number of explanations for that passage, and the literal one is a contextually and culturally poor one.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Who are the NT epistles aimed at?
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2016, 09:13:13 AM »
Hope,

I see that yet again you've just glossed over your reliance on the negative proof fallacy, although you were asked directly whether you understood it at all even in principle, even though you seem not to grasp its undoing of your argument.

Is this to be another of your, "I've demonstrated god already only, um, I seem not to be able to locate where exactly" moments then?
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