Who is a prophet?

[Khatru]

Well, according to the Bible, the test of a prophet is clearly set out in Deuteronomy 18:22

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

In other words if what's been prophesied fails to take place, it leaves us with a false prophet.

So why is it that Jonah is referred to as a prophet?

Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be overturned in 40 days.

The Ninevites believed this and commenced a fast as well as changing their clothes.  Even the king got in on the act by ordering his people to wear sackcloth and not to eat or drink.

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.  For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.  And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:  But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.  Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Jonah 3:6-9

The people of Nineveh repented and God refrained from visiting destruction on Nineveh.
 
"And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Jonah 3:10   

So the destruction of Nineveh never came to pass.

Jonah got it wrong - he was no prophet.

[trippymonkey]

It depends on whether a prophecy is 'set-in-stone' or can be averted, as in THIS case,  no ?!!?!?

BTW
Why is Mohammed called a prophet by Muslims as he never- i repeat - NEVER prophecied anything ??

Nick

[Brownie]

I didn't know the answer to that one Trippeymonkey but I googled and found this which is interesting if nothing else.  Gives an Islamic perspective:

http://www.thespiritofislam.com/mohammed-jesus/28-was-muhammad-a-true-prophet.html

[wigginhall]

Well, I think Jesus is a prophet in Islam, and is even considered to be divinely inspired, as is the Gospel, but of course, he is not divine.   In fact, I think Jesus is the penultimate prophet.

There is a pretty Sufi poem about this, 'Abraham is the root, and Moses the stem, and Jesus is the bud on the stem, and the bud opened, and the flower is Mohammed'.   

[trippymonkey]

There is a pretty Sufi poem...

Oh Dear - there's a world of difference between teachings of both persons.

[wigginhall]

There is a pretty Sufi poem...

Oh Dear - there's a world of difference between teachings of both persons.

Well, there is a big difference between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but I think Muslims are required to accept that Jesus is the penultimate prophet, and was divinely inspired.   But I'm happy to be contradicted, if this is wrong.

[Hope]

So why is it that Jonah is referred to as a prophet?

Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be overturned in 40 days.

Did he say how it would be overturned, Khat?  Doesn't its king and its people changing their mindset count as overturning?

[Hope]

Well, I think Jesus is a prophet in Islam, and is even considered to be divinely inspired, as is the Gospel, but of course, he is not divine.   In fact, I think Jesus is the penultimate prophet.

There is a pretty Sufi poem about this, 'Abraham is the root, and Moses the stem, and Jesus is the bud on the stem, and the bud opened, and the flower is Mohammed'.

The problem with this thinking is that Mohammed seems to take things backwards from what Jesus offers.  Up until then, prophets seem to have referred to progress forwards.

[Brownie]

One way of looking at it I suppose but a bit negative to only think that way, considering that Mohammed did an awful lot for the society in which he lived.  People forget that.  He was quite revolutionary.

Yes Wigginhall, Jesus is a prophet in Islam.

[bluehillside Retd.]

tripster,

Why is Mohammed called a prophet by Muslims as he never- i repeat - NEVER prophecied anything ??

I always look askance too at the BBC referring to "the prophet Mohammed" - it's a tacit endorsement of the claim, and it legitimises conceptually the notion that anyone could prophesise anything. I'd have thought, "so-called prophet" or "religious leader Moslems consider to have been a prophet" or similar would be more appropriate.

[Hope]

One way of looking at it I suppose but a bit negative to only think that way, considering that Mohammed did an awful lot for the society in which he lived.  People forget that.  He was quite revolutionary.

Yes Wigginhall, Jesus is a prophet in Islam.

I'm not aying that he wasn't 'quite revolutionary', Brownie - just that in comparison to the massively revolutionary teaching that Jesus brought, Mohammed seemed to lead Islam to return to a more paternalistic and works-based worldview than Jesus had proposed.  I appreciate that, since the times of both Jesus and Mohammed, the leaders of their respective followers haven't always stuck all that close to the teachings of their respective founders.

[Khatru]

It depends on whether a prophecy is 'set-in-stone' or can be averted, as in THIS case,  no ?!!?!?

BTW
Why is Mohammed called a prophet by Muslims as he never- i repeat - NEVER prophecied anything ??

Nick

My guess is that if you speak to a Muslim you'll get plenty of examples.

[Sassy]

Well, according to the Bible, the test of a prophet is clearly set out in Deuteronomy 18:22

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

In other words if what's been prophesied fails to take place, it leaves us with a false prophet.

So why is it that Jonah is referred to as a prophet?

Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be overturned in 40 days.

The Ninevites believed this and commenced a fast as well as changing their clothes.  Even the king got in on the act by ordering his people to wear sackcloth and not to eat or drink.

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.  For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.  And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:  But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.  Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?"

Jonah 3:6-9

The people of Nineveh repented and God refrained from visiting destruction on Nineveh.
 
"And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Jonah 3:10   

So the destruction of Nineveh never came to pass.

Jonah got it wrong - he was no prophet.

It doesn't fit does it.. Did you conveniently omit:-

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Jonah didn't die so he was telling the truth... but he also knew God would not harm them when they repented.
Do you know your trouble... Cherry picking because you cannot stand the truth that Yahweh chose Isaac as the son of the promise just as Christ is the Prophet.

The difference between true Prophets, is they know their prophecies come from God. They also know that if people repent God is just and will forgive them. But God sends someone to warn people before they are punished.
He has given everyone the chance to repent.

The facts and truth out weigh your serpent tactics. God always shown to be right in the end....

[Khatru]

Did he say how it would be overturned, Khat?  Doesn't its king and its people changing their mindset count as overturning?

Sounds like apologetics to me, Hope.

Given the Bible god's record for death, destruction and general smiting, the king and people of Nineveh would, not unreasonably, have feared the worst.

The people of Nineveh repented and God refrained from visiting destruction on Nineveh.
 

And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 3:10 KJV

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.

Jonah 3:10 NIV

Two versions of the same scripture. 

One says the prophecy stated that God was going to commit an act of evil the other says it was an act of destruction.

There was no destruction and neither was there an act of evil.

The prophecy never happened - Jonah fails the test.

Here's another line..

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Jonah 4:11

Spare them from what?  Death and destruction was the OT god's MO.  Scripture after scripture shows us that.

[Hope]

Sounds like apologetics to me, Hope.

And what is wrong with apologetics, Khat?  I've heard plenty of sientists using apologetics - even some here on the board.

Given the Bible god's record for death, destruction and general smiting, the king and people of Nineveh would, not unreasonably, have feared the worst.

The people of Nineveh repented and God refrained from visiting destruction on Nineveh.
 
Jonah 3:10 KJV

Jonah 3:10 NIV

Two versions of the same scripture. 

Quoting two versions of the same scripture like this is a bit of a tame effort, Khat.  For one thing, the language of one is nigh-on 400 years older than the other, so doesn't necessarily mean the same now as it did then (after all, language changes and develops over time).  For another thing most Biblical scholars, be they believers or not, regard the KJV as a poor translation as it's sources are far more modern than thsoe of many of the more recent transaltions -and it was interfered with by the king to strengthen the teaching on the absolute right of monarchs - especially the OT - which doesn't match the original language.

I am aware Americans like the KJV more than other translations - simply because (regardless of all the techical jargon they have come up with) every day American English is closer to Elizabethan/Shakesperean English that modern British English.  This is a well-known linguistic phenomenon, where a language that has been transported from its original location (ie English, French, ... in fact many European languages) to new locations away from its homeland has always remained somewhat closer to the original version of the language than its modern day 'homeland' cousin.

One says the prophecy stated that God was going to commit an act of evil the other says it was an act of destruction.

Does the KJV only use the term 'evil' for the worst of actions?  If my memory serves me correctly, it uses it as a synonym for 'sin' - so that could include anything from lying, to theft, from physical and mental bullying to murder, ...  Does it specify what act of destruction he was going to bring on them?  Was it damage to their property, to their persons, to their community?

There was no destruction and neither was there an act of evil.

The prophecy never happened - Jonah fails the test.

So, you think that God's message consisted solely of “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”?  If all we had of the Hebrew Scriptures was the book of Jonah, I might accept your premis, but when one looks at the books that surround this one, one sees that his message was basically one of repentance and turning to the God of the Jews.  The first part of chapter 4 reinforces this understanding - that God wanted the people of Nineveh to respond and turn to him.

Here's another line..

Jonah 4:11

Spare them from what?  Death and destruction was the OT god's MO.  Scripture after scripture shows us that.

Context of this single verse?

[~TW~]

It depends on whether a prophecy is 'set-in-stone' or can be averted, as in THIS case,  no ?!!?!?

BTW
Why is Mohammed called a prophet by Muslims as he never- i repeat - NEVER prophecied anything ??

Nick

Well the term prophet sounds nice and religious,what you should realise is the God of the Bible is not the God of the Koran so in general take your choice.Now a biblical prophet is someone chosen to bring a message by God /Jehovah and this prophecy must come true.If it does not come to pass the prophet was a false prophet,so you are then told in general take no notice of this person.

    ~TW~

[trippymonkey]

I didn't know the answer to that one Trippymonkey but I googled and found this which is interesting if nothing else.  Gives an Islamic perspective:

http://www.thespiritofislam.com/mohammed-jesus/28-was-muhammad-a-true-prophet.html

Just had a look at this place - very interesting but states from the POV of themselves being right, Christians, & Islam being wrong. It does, however, hold itself well against the rubbish Muslims say about their own religion being best of all.

Nick

[Sassy]

Wot! No one wants to admit they got it wrong... Never mind.. TRUTH doesn't interest anyone it appears these days.
Quite happy to go on posting about things they do not understand and showing how ignorant most are when it comes to the bible and God. Some of us more than happy to point out how disingenuous some people are when the truth is provided for them to read and they ignore the fact.

[floo]

Wot! No one wants to admit they got it wrong... Never mind.. TRUTH doesn't interest anyone it appears these days.
Quite happy to go on posting about things they do not understand and showing how ignorant most are when it comes to the bible and God. Some of us more than happy to point out how disingenuous some people are when the truth is provided for them to read and they ignore the fact.

Dear, dear talking about yourself again Sass! You are funny, even most Christians on this forum don't reckon your posts make much sense, let alone the rest of us!

[trippymonkey]

Is someone here, regarding whether the Bible is 100% true in its form NOW, expecting us all to bow down???

[Hope]

Is someone here, regarding whether the Bible is 100% true in its form NOW, expecting us all to bow down???

Not sure.  I suppose it depends on whether you are talking about the OT/NT or both.  The New Testament epistles continue to be predominantly directed at those within the church, whilst the Gospels continue to be directed at humanity.

I have never really been sure about the viability of Judaism in view of Jesus' opening of the message to those outside Judaism.

[Khatru]

And what is wrong with apologetics, Khat?  I've heard plenty of sientists using apologetics - even some here on the board.

Given the Bible god's record for death, destruction and general smiting, the king and people of Nineveh would, not unreasonably, have feared the worst.
Quoting two versions of the same scripture like this is a bit of a tame effort, Khat.  For one thing, the language of one is nigh-on 400 years older than the other, so doesn't necessarily mean the same now as it did then (after all, language changes and develops over time).  For another thing most Biblical scholars, be they believers or not, regard the KJV as a poor translation as it's sources are far more modern than thsoe of many of the more recent transaltions -and it was interfered with by the king to strengthen the teaching on the absolute right of monarchs - especially the OT - which doesn't match the original language.

I am aware Americans like the KJV more than other translations - simply because (regardless of all the techical jargon they have come up with) every day American English is closer to Elizabethan/Shakesperean English that modern British English.  This is a well-known linguistic phenomenon, where a language that has been transported from its original location (ie English, French, ... in fact many European languages) to new locations away from its homeland has always remained somewhat closer to the original version of the language than its modern day 'homeland' cousin.
Does the KJV only use the term 'evil' for the worst of actions?  If my memory serves me correctly, it uses it as a synonym for 'sin' - so that could include anything from lying, to theft, from physical and mental bullying to murder, ...  Does it specify what act of destruction he was going to bring on them?  Was it damage to their property, to their persons, to their community?
So, you think that God's message consisted solely of “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”?  If all we had of the Hebrew Scriptures was the book of Jonah, I might accept your premis, but when one looks at the books that surround this one, one sees that his message was basically one of repentance and turning to the God of the Jews.  The first part of chapter 4 reinforces this understanding - that God wanted the people of Nineveh to respond and turn to him.
Context of this single verse?

Apologetics uses the uncertainty, mixed messages and lack of clarity in the Bible to further the Christian cause and explain away prophecies that have failed.

I've never heard of "scientific apologetics"

So I googled it and found that it's used by Christians in an attempt to show that their superstitions and science are reconcilable. 

In other words, there's nothing scientific about it.

By the way, compared to the way he smites, slaughters and massacres his way through the OT, the god you're describing for Jonah is remarkably restrained.  Have you given him a personality transplant?

[Sassy]

What is wrong, Khatru, your cherry picking too embarrassing to answer the points raised.
May be you should stick to what you know and can prove instead of making things up.

[SweetPea]

Well, I think Jesus is a prophet in Islam, and is even considered to be divinely inspired, as is the Gospel, but of course, he is not divine.
......   

Jesus is not divine? And you know this, wiggs?

[Shaker]

Jesus is not divine? And you know this, wiggs?

Read his comment again - he means not divine from the point of view of Islam.