A very disturbing story!

[Brownie]

Definitely, that is reactive depression and it may clear up if the situation improves.  Clinical depression is different but often an incident starts it off or it is a condition that has been there to some degree even from childhood, not recognised, and worsens.  I'm wary of drugs but I've known some people who have improved greatly on medication so we cannot generalise.

It's a horrible, isolating business and has a knock on effect on physical health if it goes on for long.  Naturally if someone has faith it will be a comfort but often patients say they are spiritually dry.   

I don't know about homeopathy Sririam,  What would be put in the water for depression, to create a 'memory'?  Seratonin?  Maybe it has a placebo effect.

[Sriram]

Definitely, that is reactive depression and it may clear up if the situation improves.  Clinical depression is different but often an incident starts it off or it is a condition that has been there to some degree even from childhood, not recognised, and worsens.  I'm wary of drugs but I've known some people who have improved greatly on medication so we cannot generalise.

It's a horrible, isolating business and has a knock on effect on physical health if it goes on for long.  Naturally if someone has faith it will be a comfort but often patients say they are spiritually dry.   

I don't know about homeopathy Sririam,  What would be put in the water for depression, to create a 'memory'?  Seratonin?  Maybe it has a placebo effect.

Oh...I could go on about homeopathy. Here is an article I have written about it....

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/alternative-medicines-1/

I have more than 30 years with homeopathy and find it extremely useful....and know something about it....(I am not a qualified homeopath or anything). 

[floo]

If people are ill, physically or mentally they should always seek medical help first, imo. It is dangerous to listen to siren voices saying they will be cured if they put their faith in a religion or philosophy instead.

[Sriram]

If people are ill, physically or mentally they should always seek medical help first, imo. It is dangerous to listen to siren voices saying they will be cured if they put their faith in a religion or philosophy instead.

Yes..I agree. But some complementary treatments and religious practices can be surprisingly effective.

[floo]

Yes..I agree. But some complementary treatments and religious practices can be surprisingly effective.

As a placebo, possibly.

[Brownie]

If people are ill, physically or mentally they should always seek medical help first, imo. It is dangerous to listen to siren voices saying they will be cured if they put their faith in a religion or philosophy instead.

Sririam wasn't saying that, floo, he was saying that some complementary therapies are helpful and he particularly favours homeopathy.  The whole person has to be treated, not just the bit that is ill.  I'm sure we'd all agree with that unless we've got something like a cut finger.

I read the article Sririam and will read it again.  I do know something about Ayurvedic medicine but, though I understand like can heal like, it seems to me that the dilution in homeopathy is so great as to be just taking water.  However it seems to have worked for you (it is possible that the condition for which you nearly had a diagnostic lumbar puncture could just have cleared up on its own, it does happen).  I have no objection at all to placebos.

[Hope]

If people are ill, physically or mentally they should always seek medical help first, imo. It is dangerous to listen to siren voices saying they will be cured if they put their faith in a religion or philosophy instead.

Not sure of your own experience, but I've never actually heard or read any Christian teacher/preacher suggest otherwise, Floo.  I've heard several second- and even further-handed stories, such as the one's we've had here, but never had first-hand experience of such things.

[Brownie]

I will share something, I have felt absolutely dreadful for a few days, what my old mum would have called ''bilious'', with a thumping headache. I vomited a couple of times.  One of those things that isn't serious but is flipping horrible, could have been some sort of bug I suppose.  I drank loads of water but not eaten until this morning.  I haven't slept for a couple of nights either, couldn't with my head and nausea.   Thank God I feel much better today, it's almost gone.  I could do with a bit of sleep though.  Oh blessed healing sleep!

[floo]

Sririam wasn't saying that, floo, he was saying that some complementary therapies are helpful and he particularly favours homeopathy.  The whole person has to be treated, not just the bit that is ill.  I'm sure we'd all agree with that unless we've got something like a cut finger.

I read the article Sririam and will read it again.  I do know something about Ayurvedic medicine but, though I understand like can heal like, it seems to me that the dilution in homeopathy is so great as to be just taking water.  However it seems to have worked for you (it is possible that the condition for which you nearly had a diagnostic lumbar puncture could just have cleared up on its own, it does happen).  I have no objection at all to placebos.

A lumbar puncture for what condition, I have no recollection of that?

A member of my family is into homeopathy in a big way for her ailments. I am very concerned it is doing her much more harm than good.

[Brownie]

Sririam didn't say what the condition was floo but anyway he didn't have the lumbar puncture.  He said he'd had a CT and presumably the LP was the next step in diagnosis.

I don't see how homeopathy can do harm unless your relly overdoses on it 100 times, it is mainly water after all.  I'm a bit scared of it actually which I suppose is silly.  Sririam really believes it works and his article is excellent.  Still don't know what homeopathic treatment would be available for depression.

There used to be a Royal Homeopathic Hospital in Bloomsbury, it is now called something else (Alternative medicine hospital or similar).  They had proper medical doctors there!  The canteen was excellent, we who worked at GOS or NHNNS were allowed to go there and a few of us did occasionally.  That's the nearest I've got to homeopathy.

Edit:  Apparently this is recommended by homeopaths:  Arsenicum album

I found a long article by a doctor from the British Homeopathy Association called ''Beating the blues'', which detailed the use of Arsenicum album.  I found it very frightening, don't think I'll bother.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I wonder what the Latin term is for whataboutery? Tu quoque is probably the closest related fallacy.

I take your point about tu quote, but the concern is that this forum is primarily seen as for the argument that Christianity is evil.I need we know this is the agenda of antitheists from their beloved question of Christianity and other religions " The root of all evil?

Anyone who subscribes to the positive answer to that .................

[Shaker]

I take your point about tu quote, but the concern is that this forum is primarily seen as for the argument that Christianity is evil.

Who is concerned about that? Nobody that I'm aware of. This forum is a debating chamber where some very smart people (and good writers) knock down the would-be arguments put forward for the truth of Christianity by others. Nobody is saying that Christianity is evil (despite the fact that the behaviour of innumerable people who style themselves thus certainly has been), although certainly many aspects of it strike many people as morally wrong. Somebody makes a silly, baseless claim or commits some elementary logical error, others point it out. That's all.

I need we know this is the agenda of antitheists from their beloved question of Christianity and other religions " The root of all evil?

Anyone who subscribes to the positive answer to that .................

I don't know of anyone who does. Do you?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Who is concerned about that? Nobody that I'm aware of. This forum is a debating chamber where some very smart people (and good writers) knock down the would-be arguments put forward for the truth of Christianity by others.

I'd certainly like to see such a site........can you give us the web address?

[Shaker]

I'd certainly like to see such a site........can you give us the web address?

There are many, but I was referring to the one you're on now.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

There are many, but I was referring to the one you're on now.

No, I'm on the one where the floundering antitheists are.

The best the guys here can come up with is we don't know but we know it isn't God.

[Shaker]

No, I'm on the one where the floundering antitheists are.

I don't see anybody floundering here save those who make outlandish claims about the nature of reality with nary a scrap of evidence in their support or even an appropriate methodology for anyone to evaluate their claims, yet continue to peddle their wares nonetheless. That's floundering.

The best the guys here can come up with is we don't know but we know it isn't God.

Which, as you've been told many a time before, given that the concept lacks a consistent definition and its believers can't muster a methodology for evaluating claims of it, is a perfectly respectable position to hold.

[Rhiannon]

No, I'm on the one where the floundering antitheists are.

The best the guys here can come up with is we don't know but we know it isn't God.

It's a more honest position than 'we don't know so we'll fit God in that hole'. Although actually what people here generally claim is 'we don't know but we can't think it's god until there's evidence to the contrary.'

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't see anybody floundering here save those who make outlandish claims about the nature of reality with nary a scrap of evidence in their support or even an appropriate methodology for anyone to evaluate their claims, yet continue to peddle their wares nonetheless. That's floundering.
Which, as you've been told many a time before, given that the concept lacks a consistent definition and its believers can't muster a methodology for evaluating claims of it, is a perfectly respectable position to hold.

I'm sorry the scientism of this forum will not cut it since it is philosophy dressed up as methodology.

Science helps scientism as much as it helps any other philosophical position. I.e. Not at all.

[Shaker]

Uh oh, we're back on the -isms again

Here's a little something I found earlier that reminded me exactly of you, Vlad: https://goo.gl/8DmYXJ

[Rhiannon]

Yes..I agree. But some complementary treatments and religious practices can be surprisingly effective.

And some incredibly damaging. Do you know which is which?

For example, religious ritual can be dangerous for people with OCD and Shaker alerted us to research showing that mindfulness can be dangerous for people with a tendency to bipolar and PTSD.

In terms of complementary therapies replacing medication with homeopathy is known to be dangerous. Herbal medicine can be effective but the interactions aren't always understood. The same applies to aromatherapy.

That's not to say medical science offers things that are universally safe. I've had some horrific experiences taking prescription medication, including feeling suicidal.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Uh oh, we're back on the -isms again

I suppose the ologies are OK then.

[Shaker]

Yeah, the -ologies are OK - they have the tools in place to be able to sift claims and sort out the most probably true from the most probably false, etc.

[Brownie]

I don't believe mindfulness is dangerous, I remember when we discussed that before.

Herbal remedies can be dangerous and some alternative medication - St John's Wort, 5-HTTP can make people feel very ill.  I find it all a bit scary but I think all Sririam was saying was that some complementary therapies and religious practices are good, not all.  Much depends on the individual.

[Shaker]

I don't believe mindfulness is dangerous, I remember when we discussed that before.

There's quite a lot of evidence that it can be bad (as in extremely psychologically disturbing) for a small number of people.

[Rhiannon]

I had a really horrible experience once when first trying mindfulness meditation, I started to get flashbacks to a past trauma and had a bad anxiety attack that stayed with me for days. I'm ok with it now though for some reason.