EU = Loss Of Our Freedom & Common Law.

[Jack Knave]

All well and good - for that to make any sense you have got to completely revise our voting system to truly reflect the wishes of the electorate - otherwise the only outcome of an out vote would be the sustainment of a perpetual Tory govt under the spectacular guidance of Boris, Gove and Farage. There will still be no true democracy if we leave - at least if we stay we will retain some basic protections. Did you see IDS on TV - he can't wait for workers rights to be more 'flexible'.

Yeah, by flexible he means he gets them to bend over and shafts them even more than he does now.

But the long term plan of the EU is not for those protections it is total rule from Brussels, just as Moscow had total rule over the Soviet Union. The Ever-Closer-Union is for all the power to be centralised in Brussels and who can tell if and when a Stalin type figure will come along in the future and rule like the last Stalin. We are not voting to get the UK out of the EU we are voting to free the European people. Perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow but for some future generation who will not thank us if we allow them to be born into slavehood.

[Jack Knave]

Wrong. I understand the quotation all too well. It is you who lack the understanding.

What UKIP have done is taken one of the best-known statements on the nature of liberty made by any political theorist in the twentieth century and distorted it to fit their vacuous, negative, bankrupt philosophy.

I asked you to explain your position but that explains nothing. All it does is show you up as a wild arm waver, and no doubt a heavily flushed face...

[Jack Knave]

To nail my colours to the mast I would much prefer it if the electorate voted for Labour. However I am realistic enough to know that the likelihood of that is slim given Corbyn's leadership and the array of misinformation presented about him generally; added to which he has to deal with the malcontents in his own party. BUT I have for the last 30 years at least, argued that the electoral system needs reforming so that it more clearly reflects the opinions of voters. Many argue that leads to a lack of strong government. Well I could personally do with a bit less strength - because all the current lot seem to do with the strength is to use it to bully their way through everything.  So I was not arguing for bureaucrats to run the show - what I was arguing for was that the slim protection afforded for us via the EU should continue - and that allied to the fact that I have not seen any sensible argument that would explain how we won't be worse off financially leads me to the conclusion that we should stay in. To characterise that as wanting to be run by bureaucrats is quite frankly, disingenuous - and I must say worthy of either Boris, Michael or Nigel.

But that is exactly what the EU is about!!!

[Jack Knave]

You are missing the point. We don't currently live in a true democracy. We have got a majority government in power on 37% of the popular vote. This is a an unrepresentative democracy. It's no good arguing that you want sovereignty (which frankly is a mirage in todays globalised economy) returned to the UK if all it gives you is the same old corrupt electoral system - which will never change under the 2 major parties. And the Lib Dems so beloved of Jakswan messed up the only opportunity they had to get some version of PR installed - so in thrall to Cameron was the Cleggster.

No one said the system we have is of a superlative standard. But to have unelected and out of reach bureaucrats who run our lives is even worse. At least if we only have the Westminster set-up then we have a chance of changing it and they won't have the EU gravy train to pull them away from focusing on the UK's needs. But all this requires the voters to wake up and see and understand what is going on and so stop voting for the two main parties, like a Ping-Pong game.

[Jack Knave]

Well that is obviously complete bollocks. Have you ever been to the Continent?

For example, I can guarantee you that there is nothing in French law that expressly permits you to pick your nose and yet if you do it in Paris, they won't arrest you.

That's the best you're got? 

The I've got nothing to worry about!

[Hope]

Well I could personally do with a bit less strength - because all the current lot seem to do with the strength is to use it to bully their way through everything.

They're only copying the administrations that have been in power since Harold Wilson, perhaps even the National Government of the 2nd W. W.

[jeremyp]

That's the best you're got? 

It's better than any of that effluent you've got.

[jeremyp]

unelected and out of reach bureaucrats who run our lives

Can you list some of the ways in which EU bureaucrats run your life?

[Rhiannon]

They made us clean up our beaches so they aren't covered in raw sewage.

The bastards.

[Harrowby Hall]

"...that government of the people, by the people, for the people,..."

Yeah! Just like the United Kingdom and its 412,00 civil servants (not to mention police, miltary, NHS and local government) - self-effacing Humphrey Applebys all ensuring that the will their political masters will prevail. All without any organisational agenda born of the knowledge that their posts are permanent while those of their political masters are only transient and ephemeral.

"Europe" - of course - is real bureaucracy with 55,000 bureaucrats totally dominating the democratic will in 28 countries.

[Bubbles]

Can you list some of the ways in which EU bureaucrats run your life?

The Express informs us that the EU has passed over one hundred laws that have ruined Britain and affected all of us.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/484419/New-EU-laws-ruining-Britain

Like reports like this, although they claim to lay it bare they only cite a couple, one of which seems to involve ferrets 

It made me laugh. Was that the best example they could find to drag out?

Ferrets?

They have a "merciless grip" on our ferrets? 

Papers are funny sometimes.
  .

[Harrowby Hall]

I asked you to explain your position but that explains nothing. All it does is show you up as a wild arm waver, and no doubt a heavily flushed face...

I apologise.

I am truly sorry.

I asked you to consider a statement by one of the world's leading political philosophers about the nature of liberty that is clearly beyond your limited and constrained intellectual capabilities. I hadn't realised that you have difficulty with tri-syllabic words.

I won't cause you such embarrassment again.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yeah! Just like the United Kingdom and its 412,00 civil servants (not to mention police, miltary, NHS and local government) - self-effacing Humphrey Applebys all ensuring that the will their political masters will prevail. All without any organisational agenda born of the knowledge that their posts are permanent while those of their political masters are only transient and ephemeral.

"Europe" - of course - is real bureaucracy with 55,000 bureaucrats totally dominating the democratic will in 28 countries.

Exactly - classic naive thinking of the Brexiter to see the EU run by bureaucrats and undemocratic while the UK is democratic. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So in the UK - laws are drafted by civil servants, who last time I looked were undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the HoC which is democratically elected, albeit I only have a say in 1 in 650 of its members, and by the HoL which is completely undemocratic.

In the EU - laws are drafted by the EU commission, who just like civil servants are undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the EU parliament which is democratically elected,and despite covering a far larger area than the UK I have a say in the election of a greater number of its members than the UK parliament. It also has to be approved by the Council of Europe, with is made up of the democratically elected governments of the member states so as democratic as the HoC is, and way more democratic than the HoLs.

So if anything the EU is more democratic than the UK in terms of the laws it passes that affect the people living there.

[Harrowby Hall]

The Express informs us that the EU has passed over one hundred laws that have ruined Britain and affected all of us.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/484419/New-EU-laws-ruining-Britain

Like reports like this, although they claim to lay it bare they only cite a couple, one of which seems to involve ferrets 

It made me laugh. Was that the best example they could find to drag out?

Ferrets?

They have a merciless grip on our ferrets? 

Papers are funny sometimes.
  .

Jeremy Paxman is doing a programme on BBC1 tomorrow looking at the EU and "sovereignty".

[Bubbles]

Jeremy Paxman is doing a programme on BBC1 tomorrow looking at the EU and "sovereignty".

Ok, perhaps I'll record it 

Thanks 

[floo]

I am of the opinion we will regret it if we leave the EU.

[jeremyp]

The Express informs us that the EU has passed over one hundred laws that have ruined Britain and affected all of us.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/484419/New-EU-laws-ruining-Britain

Like reports like this, although they claim to lay it bare they only cite a couple, one of which seems to involve ferrets 

It made me laugh. Was that the best example they could find to drag out?

This is why I asked the question of Jack about how he thinks the EU bureaucrats run his life. The only EU legislation I can think of that directly impacts me is the Working Time directive. Bastards, how dare they prevent me from being exploited by my employer. Also, there is, as Rhiannon pointed out, the fact that I have fewer opportunities to swim in sewage. Bastards! Frequently, when I drive my car into pedestrians, they survive because of meddling EU car safety legislation. Bastards!

By the way, there are no EU laws in force in the UK. Every time the EU come up with a new rule, it has to be enacted as British legislation by the British parliament. None of that will disappear in a puff of smoke if we leave the EU, neither will any of the alleged bureaucracy

[Udayana]

They made us clean up our beaches so they aren't covered in raw sewage.

The bastards.

Didn't we just ignore them?

[Udayana]

Exactly - classic naive thinking of the Brexiter to see the EU run by bureaucrats and undemocratic while the UK is democratic. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So in the UK - laws are drafted by civil servants, who last time I looked were undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the HoC which is democratically elected, albeit I only have a say in 1 in 650 of its members, and by the HoL which is completely undemocratic.

In the EU - laws are drafted by the EU commission, who just like civil servants are undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the EU parliament which is democratically elected,and despite covering a far larger area than the UK I have a say in the election of a greater number of its members than the UK parliament. It also has to be approved by the Council of Europe, with is made up of the democratically elected governments of the member states so as democratic as the HoC is, and way more democratic than the HoLs.

So if anything the EU is more democratic than the UK in terms of the laws it passes that affect the people living there.

This is right.

However might be worth pointing out that the EU is run by civil servants because that is the way it was designed by the democratically elected governments and civil servants that created it. Similarly the European Parliament is toothless because those same governments don't want to be usurped by the EU. Could extend this to why so many of the procedures and methods employed by the Commission are so hopelessly bureaucratic, even insane, and their staff (and MEPs) so well rewarded and privileged.

It is certainly a mess, but we wouldn't be in any less of mess out of it.
 

[ProfessorDavey]

This is right.

However might be worth pointing out that the EU is run by civil servants because that is the way it was designed by the democratically elected governments and civil servants that created it. Similarly the European Parliament is toothless because those same governments don't want to be usurped by the EU. Could extend this to why so many of the procedures and methods employed by the Commission are so hopelessly bureaucratic, even insane, and their staff (and MEPs) so well rewarded and privileged.

It is certainly a mess, but we wouldn't be in any less of mess out of it.

Which translates to it being as democratic as the democratic credibility of the member state governments. And yes you are right the way in which the EU is set up gives the greatest power to the member state governments - so for Brexiters to complain about the EU if decisions we don't like are passed, particularly on issues where unanimity is required is absolute rubbish. The buck stops at the door of the UK government as in these cases they have an absolute veto.

So we keep hearing about the 'dangers' of Turkey joining the EU. Let's set aside whether it is a danger or not and also accept that Turkey joining will impact the UK whether or not we are members of the EU. But the point is that while we remain a member Turkey cannot join without our agreement - if the UK government says no, even if all other 27 countries say yes, then Turkey doesn't join. The ability to stop Turkey joining rests entirely with the UK government - so if Turkey does join it will mean that the UK government has agree and that's where complaints should be laid, at the UK government, not at the EU. To blame the EU for a decision that rests with the UK government is a smokescreen.

Of course if we leave the EU we will no longer be able to block Turkey joining although their membership will impact on us.

[Jack Knave]

Can you list some of the ways in which EU bureaucrats run your life?

When you say 'your life' do you mean personally or Britain i.e. directly or indirectly due to their effects?

[Jack Knave]

I apologise.

I am truly sorry.

I asked you to consider a statement by one of the world's leading political philosophers about the nature of liberty that is clearly beyond your limited and constrained intellectual capabilities. I hadn't realised that you have difficulty with tri-syllabic words.

I won't cause you such embarrassment again.

You seem to think that an explosive rant is a cogent explanation or request. The idea is that you put forward your proposed angle on things in a clear fashion and then I respond to the details you have aired. Farting madly doesn't count as a considered proposition to the argument and discourse.

[Jack Knave]

Exactly - classic naive thinking of the Brexiter to see the EU run by bureaucrats and undemocratic while the UK is democratic. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So in the UK - laws are drafted by civil servants, who last time I looked were undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the HoC which is democratically elected, albeit I only have a say in 1 in 650 of its members, and by the HoL which is completely undemocratic.

In the EU - laws are drafted by the EU commission, who just like civil servants are undemocratically appointed 'bureaucrats'. For a law to be enacted it needs to be approved by the EU parliament which is democratically elected,and despite covering a far larger area than the UK I have a say in the election of a greater number of its members than the UK parliament. It also has to be approved by the Council of Europe, with is made up of the democratically elected governments of the member states so as democratic as the HoC is, and way more democratic than the HoLs.

So if anything the EU is more democratic than the UK in terms of the laws it passes that affect the people living there.

Well, that comparison is bollocks and spin.

As for the bit about the UK they are all in the pocket of Brussels, hence why it hasn't a hope in hell of becoming even remotely democratic.

[Jack Knave]

By the way, there are no EU laws in force in the UK. Every time the EU come up with a new rule, it has to be enacted as British legislation by the British parliament. None of that will disappear in a puff of smoke if we leave the EU, neither will any of the alleged bureaucracy

Reading from your Annual Book of Crap are we? Where do you get your rubbish from?

[Jack Knave]

Which translates to it being as democratic as the democratic credibility of the member state governments. And yes you are right the way in which the EU is set up gives the greatest power to the member state governments - so for Brexiters to complain about the EU if decisions we don't like are passed, particularly on issues where unanimity is required is absolute rubbish. The buck stops at the door of the UK government as in these cases they have an absolute veto.

So we keep hearing about the 'dangers' of Turkey joining the EU. Let's set aside whether it is a danger or not and also accept that Turkey joining will impact the UK whether or not we are members of the EU. But the point is that while we remain a member Turkey cannot join without our agreement - if the UK government says no, even if all other 27 countries say yes, then Turkey doesn't join. The ability to stop Turkey joining rests entirely with the UK government - so if Turkey does join it will mean that the UK government has agree and that's where complaints should be laid, at the UK government, not at the EU. To blame the EU for a decision that rests with the UK government is a smokescreen.

Of course if we leave the EU we will no longer be able to block Turkey joining although their membership will impact on us.

This is crap because all those who work for the EU are being bought off by the EU and so will do what Brussels wants. In effect we have no British people in the EU system because they are all EU-philes; EUers. You can only have one master!!! any others you may have you will despise.