EU = Loss Of Our Freedom & Common Law.

[Jack Knave]

Tell me something that you buy where you are certain that the rate of VAT would be different were we not in the EU.

You do know that VAT rates are markedly different in the various EU countries and the level of VAT is determined by member state governments not the EU. So, for example, the rate is 20% in the UK, whereas in Luxemburg it is 17% and in Sweden it is 25%.

And even in the UK VAT rates have changed regularly over the past few years under the control of the UK government, so in 2008 it was 15%, it rose to 17.5% in 2010 and to 20% in 2011. Those changes were entirely down to the UK government, and nothing to do with the EU.

There are also massively different lists in each country of items reduced rates of VAT - in all other EU member states nothing is 0% rated, but as you are probably aware the UK has a long list of 0% rates items from children's clothes to books to most food. Again all decided by the relevant member state, not the EU.

VAT was brought in by the EU to create a more level playing field. All items have a minimum rate. If individual members want to apply higher rates than the minimum then they can.

[jeremyp]

The personal issue isn't here nor there!

Yes it is. The point is to demonstrate to you that the EU hate that you have bought in to is for the most part a myth.

A minimum VAT is set on everything by Brussels.

What is that minimum rate?

How do you explain that some of our goods and services are exempt from VAT?

Who set our VAT rate? Was it the EU or the UK government?

It is the effect on the country as a whole that concerns me.

But you don't know what that effect is. You don't know how the EU has affected you, how can you know how it has affected anybody else?

it is a dysfunctional and undemocratic institution run by the venal and greedy Elites.

Ironically, many people would claim that description applies to our government.

[Jack Knave]

Yes it is. The point is to demonstrate to you that the EU hate that you have bought in to is for the most part a myth.

What an amateur! Is this your best argument?

What is that minimum rate?

How do you explain that some of our goods and services are exempt from VAT?

Who set our VAT rate? Was it the EU or the UK government?

The minimum rate is set by the EU. It could be zero for some items.

But you don't know what that effect is. You don't know how the EU has affected you, how can you know how it has affected anybody else?

I've been following the activity of the EU for about a decade now. Yes it's boring shit but it had to be done. The fundamental issue is one of democracy for the UK and the lack of in the case of the EU. All other issues are periphery or secondary factors.

It doesn't matter whether we vote to stay or leave the EU is cracking up. Look at the elections in Austria!!! And these kind of things are bubbling away in many other member states.

Ironically, many people would claim that description applies to our government.

Here we agree and once we are out the EU the next fight will be to deal with this - it ain't gonna be pretty...

[ProfessorDavey]

The minimum rate is set by the EU. It could be zero for some items.

Wrong - the minimum is set by the government of the member states - hence for the UK it is zero, but for all other EU countries it is greater than zero.

And I don't think there is a maximum - so effectively the EU 'allows' member states to set their levels of VAT anywhere between zero and infinity. Hmm and apparently that somehow equates to the EU telling us what to do.

So you can have 0% on some items, 5% on others and 20% on others (as is the case for the UK), you could have 6%, 12% and 21% (as is the case in Belgium). You can even have more rates if you want - so Ireland has 4.8%, 9%, 13.5% and 23%.

You can also decide which items are in which category - so we charge 20% (the highest rate) on cinema tickets, while it is a reduced rate of 13% in Austria.

As far as I can see there is no EU control of VAT rates between countries - neither in theory nor in practice.

Where there are regulations at EU level it to control the way in which the different VAT levels between countries are managed when there is cross border trade - so, for example if a company buy a widget from portugal (with a certain VAT level) uses it in the manufacture of a product which is then sold in the UK (with a different level of VAT) or even in Portugal (where the level of VAT charged on the product might be different from the original widget). This is all very sensible and provides fairness while reducing bureaucracy.

[jeremyp]

What an amateur! Is this your best argument?

Given that you have, yet again, reported to insult, we can deduce it's too good for you.

The minimum rate is set by the EU. It could be zero for some items.

Can you cite any occasion where the British government has had a problem with the EU minimum rate i.e. where the government has ever wanted to set a lower rate than the  EU allows?

It doesn't matter whether we vote to stay or leave the EU is cracking up. Look at the elections in Austria!!! And these kind of things are bubbling away in many other member states.

What, the one where the far right candidate failed to get elected?

[Jack Knave]

Wrong - the minimum is set by the government of the member states - hence for the UK it is zero, but for all other EU countries it is greater than zero.

And I don't think there is a maximum - so effectively the EU 'allows' member states to set their levels of VAT anywhere between zero and infinity. Hmm and apparently that somehow equates to the EU telling us what to do.

So you can have 0% on some items, 5% on others and 20% on others (as is the case for the UK), you could have 6%, 12% and 21% (as is the case in Belgium). You can even have more rates if you want - so Ireland has 4.8%, 9%, 13.5% and 23%.

You can also decide which items are in which category - so we charge 20% (the highest rate) on cinema tickets, while it is a reduced rate of 13% in Austria.

As far as I can see there is no EU control of VAT rates between countries - neither in theory nor in practice.

Where there are regulations at EU level it to control the way in which the different VAT levels between countries are managed when there is cross border trade - so, for example if a company buy a widget from portugal (with a certain VAT level) uses it in the manufacture of a product which is then sold in the UK (with a different level of VAT) or even in Portugal (where the level of VAT charged on the product might be different from the original widget). This is all very sensible and provides fairness while reducing bureaucracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax

The aim of the EU VAT directive (Council Directive 2006/112/EC of 28 November 2006 on the common system of value added tax) is to harmonize VAT within the EU VAT area, and specifies that VAT rates must be within a certain range.[2] It has several basic purposes:[citation needed]

• harmonisation of VAT law (content)
• harmonisation of content and layout of the VAT declaration
• regulation of accounting, providing a common legal accounting framework
• detailed description of invoices (article 226) and receipts (article 226b), meaning that member states have a common invoice framework
• regulation of accounts payable
• regulation of accounts receivable
• standard definition of national accountancy and administrative terms

------------------------------
The zero rate is not featured in the EU Sixth Directive as it was intended that the minimum VAT rate throughout Europe would be 5%. However, zero-rating remains in some member states, most notably the UK and Ireland, as a legacy of pre-EU legislation.
-------------------------------
 A small proportion goes to the European Union in the form of a levy ("VAT-based own resources").

[Jack Knave]

Given that you have, yet again, reported to insult, we can deduce it's too good for you.

Your arguments are so kindergarten-ish that all they are worth are derision. Educate yourself and then get back to me.

Can you cite any occasion where the British government has had a problem with the EU minimum rate i.e. where the government has ever wanted to set a lower rate than the  EU allows?

That points to one of my main points in all this that the UK governments over the decades have been pro-EU and so never kicked up a fuss about it, else we would have been offered a referendum years ago. In fact Labour said they would give us a referendum on the Lisbon treaty and never did. The Tories did a similar thing. When not in power they act as though they want to deal with the EU, because they know the people aren't happy with it, but once in power they fudge it.

What, the one where the far right candidate failed to get elected?

Failed? He missed it by a cat's whisker. That country is divided down the middle and it will show its ugly head in the near future. The migrant crisis will cause a huge amount of problems. And similar splits are occurring right across the EU. 

What about France and its strikes. About 25% of its petrol stations have no fuel and it is coming to a stand still. If the labour law goes through there will be total outrage and if it doesn't then the EZ's deficit rule will start to falter and the Euro take a downward plunge. Belgium also has strike problems about the labour/working rules.


https://euobserver.com/tickers/133535

Turkey's parliament will block a deal with the EU on migrants if Turks do not gain visa-free access to the bloc, president Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned. "Turkey is not asking for favours – what we want is honesty," he said at the end of the World Humanitarian Summit.

----------------------------
https://euobserver.com/tickers/133537

Workers at all of France's eight oil refineries walked out on strike over new labour laws on Tuesday, leaving roughly 20% of petrol stations low on supply or completely out of fuel. In Brussels, 60,000 workers marched in protest at plans to raise working hours and the age of retirement.

----------------------------
https://euobserver.com/tickers/133534

German development minister Gerd Mueller wants 10% of the EU budget spent on solving the refugee crisis. A special commissioner should be appointed to lead a combined European refugee strategy, he told the Guardian in the margins of the world humanitarian summit in Istanbul.

---This could cause a huge amount of backlash at these times of austerity in the EU. It could mean a larger EU budget so members have to pay in more and we could lose our rebate (called an abatement), which we will soon lose if we vote to stay in. Plus the plans to enforce migrant quotas on member states very much in the vein of the USSR!!!---

https://euobserver.com/tickers/133543

The future participation of the International Monetary Fund in the Greek bailout is not 100 percent sure despite Monday's agreement on debt relief, Eurogroup president Jeroen Dijsselbloem said on Tuesday. The IMF's board will decide later this year after an assessment of the Greek debt sustainability.

---This'll make the shit hit the fan!!! Where will the EU get sufficient funds to give the Greeks another bailout? From the members states who are bankrupt themselves? And though we are not in the EZ they'll somehow make us pay by a round about underhand way!!!---

The EU is looking goood!!! 

[ProfessorDavey]

and specifies that VAT rates must be within a certain range.

So lets actually cut to the chase here, what actually is that range.

The EU does not set a maximum rate, so theoretically and member state can set an upper level of anything they like.

The EU also allows a reduced rate of 0%.

So the EU is restricting VAT level set by member states to between 0% and infinity.

Yup, the EU really is restricting us.

Numpty.

[jeremyp]

The zero rate is not featured in the EU Sixth Directive as it was intended that the minimum VAT rate throughout Europe would be 5%. However, zero-rating remains in some member states, most notably the UK and Ireland, as a legacy of pre-EU legislation.

Wait! We have been able to ignore an EU directive? I thought the problem was supposed to be we couldn't do that.

[jeremyp]

Your arguments are so kindergarten-isa

Insults noted. You really do have nothing.

That points to one of my main points in all this that the UK governments over the decades have been pro-EU and so never kicked up a fuss about it, else we would have been offered a referendum years ago.

We were offered a referendum years ago. We voted to stay in what was then called the EEC.

The migrant crisis will cause a huge amount of problems.

Only because of unjustified xenophobia.

What about France and its strikes. About 25% of its petrol stations have no fuel and it is coming to a stand still.

Nothing to do with the EU as I've already pointed out, but then this is your MO isn't it: get all frothy at the mouth about some issue that either has no relevance to the EU or won't go away just because we leave.

[Jack Knave]

So lets actually cut to the chase here, what actually is that range.

The EU does not set a maximum rate, so theoretically and member state can set an upper level of anything they like.

The EU also allows a reduced rate of 0%.

So the EU is restricting VAT level set by member states to between 0% and infinity.

Yup, the EU really is restricting us.

Numpty.

Read the Wiki link. Except for a few exceptions, due to historical circumstances, the minimum rate is 5%, and could be higher for some items. However, if members states wish to charge more than the minimum then they can.

[jeremyp]

Except for a few exceptions, due to historical circumstances, the minimum rate is 5%,

Right, so the UK can charge between 0% and infinity as Prof D said.

Such a strait jacket, how do we survive.

Are you so naive to think that, if we leave the EU, VAT will be abolished?

Are you so naive to think that, any trade agreement between us and the EU will not contain a clause which says we have to abide by their VAT rules - except that, since it is a new agreement, all our exemptions will go out of the window.

[Jack Knave]

Wait! We have been able to ignore an EU directive? I thought the problem was supposed to be we couldn't do that.

Read the Wiki link. You know very well that because the EU has evolved in bits as members joined at different times when different rules were mandatory, and so prior to those mandatory rules some members had acquired opt-outs, this explains your stupid comment. We have an opt-out of the Euro which as I have said else where is one of the pillars of the EU's wet dream.

This was one of the questions during the Scots referendum that if they left the UK and joined the EU would they just carry on from where the UK was related to the EU or would they have to join afresh with all the mandatory rules that apply to a new applicant.

[Jack Knave]

1) Insults noted. You really do have nothing.

2) We were offered a referendum years ago. We voted to stay in what was then called the EEC.

3) Only because of unjustified xenophobia.

4) Nothing to do with the EU as I've already pointed out, but then this is your MO isn't it: get all frothy at the mouth about some issue that either has no relevance to the EU or won't go away just because we leave.

1) Only because you leave me with an open goal by your stupid comments. You are like a dog that barks regardless even when I've shown you that you are wrong.

2) That was 40 odd years ago, you idiot - oh dear another open goal. Since then the EU has had two major changes - Maastricht and Lisbon. At no point were the UK people asked if they approved to such a major change to their lives. If it wasn't such a big deal then why the bust up in the Tory party over Maastricht?

3) A totally unjustified comment with no substance or teeth.

4) Like everything else of yours pure assertion and no grounding in reality.

[Jack Knave]

Right, so the UK can charge between 0% and infinity as Prof D said.

Such a strait jacket, how do we survive.

Are you so naive to think that, if we leave the EU, VAT will be abolished?

Are you so naive to think that, any trade agreement between us and the EU will not contain a clause which says we have to abide by their VAT rules - except that, since it is a new agreement, all our exemptions will go out of the window.

It is not 0% on all items. Recently the tampon VAT just to highlight that they are not all 0%. Energy as well.

If we leave it will be in our control, our choice, that's the point!

As for your last point any trade with any country, or whatever, comes with conditions that each partner will insist on. That's how things work. The EU can't afford to not trade with us. It is stagnate, its share of global GDP is going down yearly, companies like BMW etc. won't tolerate the arrogant twats in Brussels having a fit and a strop, and without our membership fee there will be large cracks as the finances of the EU and stretched to breaking point.   

[Sassy]

But the long term plan of the EU is not for those protections it is total rule from Brussels, just as Moscow had total rule over the Soviet Union. The Ever-Closer-Union is for all the power to be centralised in Brussels and who can tell if and when a Stalin type figure will come along in the future and rule like the last Stalin. We are not voting to get the UK out of the EU we are voting to free the European people. Perhaps not today, perhaps not tomorrow but for some future generation who will not thank us if we allow them to be born into slavehood.

Or, Hitler type ruler where all who do not toe the line are killed. Where disabled people and those whose colour or religion does not fit are removed....

It isn't much different to the Tower of Babel idea or the Hitler with the perfect race.

It is a frightening prospect what the reality could turn out to be... and some thing house prices and expensive holidays are a social threat... Whodathunkit...

[jeremyp]

Read the Wiki link. You know very well that because the EU has evolved in bits as members joined at different times when different rules were mandatory, and so prior to those mandatory rules some members had acquired opt-outs, this explains your stupid comment. We have an opt-out of the Euro which as I have said else where is one of the pillars of the EU's wet dream.

This was one of the questions during the Scots referendum that if they left the UK and joined the EU would they just carry on from where the UK was related to the EU or would they have to join afresh with all the mandatory rules that apply to a new applicant.

So you admit we have exemptions from the EU base rate. I fail to see what you are complaining about. It seems we have full control over VAT excepting that we can't reduce the rate for non exempt things below 5%, but UK VAT has never been as low as 5%

[jeremyp]

2) That was 40 odd years ago, you idiot - oh dear another open goal. Since then the EU has had two major changes - Maastricht and Lisbon. At no point were the UK people asked if they approved to such a major change to their lives. If it wasn't such a big deal then why the bust up in the Tory party over Maastricht?

You asserted we had never been offered a referendum. We have.

3) A totally unjustified comment with no substance or teeth.

You seem to be getting worked up about it nonetheless.

4) Like everything else of yours pure assertion and no grounding in reality.

The labour laws that the French government are seeking to change have nothing to do with the EU. It's that simple. You can bluster about it all you like but you are wrong. This is an example of the dishonest tactics lies you have been using all along.

[ProfessorDavey]

So you admit we have exemptions from the EU base rate. I fail to see what you are complaining about. It seems we have full control over VAT excepting that we can't reduce the rate for non exempt things below 5%, but UK VAT has never been as low as 5%

But you can - there are all sorts of examples in the EU of countries that have VAT rates above zero but below 5%. Countries include Spain, Ireland, Luxembourg, Italy.

If you look across the EU member states you will find VAT as low as 0%, as high as 27% and virtually every level in between. So much for the EU dictating to its member states on VAT rates.

[Jack Knave]

So you admit we have exemptions from the EU base rate. I fail to see what you are complaining about. It seems we have full control over VAT excepting that we can't reduce the rate for non exempt things below 5%, but UK VAT has never been as low as 5%

What are you arguing about you are wrong and have lost the argument. We don't have control over our VAT rates and may lose what we do have in the future.

The Leave campaign have today stated that they would like to remove VAT from our energy bills but they can't because of the EU. If a party in an election campaign wants to abolish VAT and put this in their manifesto they can't because of the EU.

You've lost the argument but if you want to keep digging that hole then do so, it's where you belong - 6 feet under...

Oh yes, and what was all that fuss about the tampon VAT?

[Jack Knave]

You asserted we had never been offered a referendum. We have.
You seem to be getting worked up about it nonetheless.

The labour laws that the French government are seeking to change have nothing to do with the EU. It's that simple. You can bluster about it all you like but you are wrong. This is an example of the dishonest tactics lies you have been using all along.

You're now just lying and blustering...

[jeremyp]

What are you arguing about you are wrong and have lost the argument. We don't have control over our VAT rates and may lose what we do have in the future.

Before we carry on with this argument, answer these questions:

Who set the initial VAT rate of 10% in 1973? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who reduced the standard VAT rate to 8% in 1974? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 15% in 1979? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 17.5% in 1991? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who reduced the standard VAT rate to 15% in 2008? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 17.5% in 2009? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 20% in 2010? Was it the EU or the British government?

[Aruntraveller]

It is quite astonishing how much the (very much disputed) figure of £350m is going to fund should we exit the EU.

Its going to the farmers, the NHS, scientific research and now its going to help us fund a cut in VAT.

Methinks wishful thinking, (or as I like to think of it , lies) rather than a sound grasp of economics or even basic Maths, is at play here.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is quite astonishing how much the (very much disputed) figure of £350m is going to fund should we exit the EU.

Its going to the farmers, the NHS, scientific research and now its going to help us fund a cut in VAT.

Methinks wishful thinking, (or as I like to think of it , lies) rather than a sound grasp of economics or even basic Maths, is at play here.

Fantasy economics and magic money tree spending plans.

[Jack Knave]

Before we carry on with this argument, answer these questions:

Who set the initial VAT rate of 10% in 1973? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who reduced the standard VAT rate to 8% in 1974? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 15% in 1979? Was it the EEC or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 17.5% in 1991? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who reduced the standard VAT rate to 15% in 2008? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 17.5% in 2009? Was it the EU or the British government?

Who increased the standard VAT rate to 20% in 2010? Was it the EU or the British government?

  Disingenuous to the very end. I've explained all this.