Antitheism

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I understand, but is there anything other than religion that offers an afterlife? Because that seems to me up be a pretty big driver in a lot of what we see.

It doesn't offer things in that way. It's an expression of our desires. I don't think that the after life itself is the driver here even as a desire rather it is a question of justice. We can see that our world is unjust so how can we make that palatable.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

stop thinking about God .......or gods..........or the gods.
Is that a sensible or healthy commandment?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It doesn't offer things in that way. It's an expression of our desires. I don't think that the after life itself is the driver here even as a desire rather it is a question of justice. We can see that our world is unjust so how can we make that palatable.

Excellent points........Here is a question...........Why is injustice so unpalatable?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Brownie,

Short answer (as given by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens I think): 9/11.

But to conclude its religion that is the root of all evil isn't the only conclusion.
There is the conclusion that this is intrinsic in all humanity.....that it is part of the human potential.
This conclusion fits the facts better I would have thought.

[Rhiannon]

It doesn't offer things in that way. It's an expression of our desires. I don't think that the after life itself is the driver here even as a desire rather it is a question of justice. We can see that our world is unjust so how can we make that palatable.

Then you haven't spent enough time with those for whom salvation is the only thing that matters - seeing life from a 'heavenly perspective'. It's how homophobia within the church is often justified, saving the soul of the 'sinner'.

[Shaker]

Excellent points........Here is a question...........Why is injustice so unpalatable?

We don't know exactly save to say that a sense of justice/injustice and fairness/unfairness is built into us. Toddlers have it. Hell, chimpanzees have it, which is is precisely what we'd expect.

Theory of mind has to play a large, maybe even the major part in it - seeing another ape getting the shitty end of the stick doesn't impact upon me directly and immediately, but if I have a brain large and complex enough to be able to imagine how I would feel if I were in that position, and therefore I feel bad for the other ape who is in that position even if I personally am not ... there's your inchoate sense of justice. Not-me-but-I-know-how-I'd-feel-if-it-was-me - that's empathy, and that's the beginnings of justice, AFAICS.

It needn't have been this way. We could have hung on to the reptilian brain. Scared? Well, so what. Just been raped? Not my problem, I haven't been. About to be eaten alive? I'm not in that position so pull the ladder up, Jack - somebody else's problem.

But we're not like that.

Or at least, only those we regard as very badly damaged indeed are like that. The vast majority of us are fashioned differently.

[Rhiannon]

I've been a (horrified) party to a conversation that went something like this:

Bereaved woman; is my mum in heaven?

Vicar: no, sorry

Bereaved woman: but she was a nice person

Vicar: tough shit. She wasn't a Christian. Still, look on the bright side. You are.

[Rhiannon]

Excellent points........Here is a question...........Why is injustice so unpalatable?

We are capable of empathy.

We are also capable of making up shit in order to enable us to feel better when we wonder where all the calculators go.

[Shaker]

We are capable of empathy.

We are also capable of making up shit in order to enable us to feel better when we wonder where all the calculators go.

It took you a few words to say what it took me nearly two hundred to say. So it goes

[Shaker]

I've been a (horrified) party to a conversation that went something like this:

Bereaved woman; is my mum in heaven?

Vicar: no, sorry

Bereaved woman: but she was a nice person

Vicar: tough shit. She wasn't a Christian. Still, look on the bright side. You are.

Who the fuck was that vicar?

[Rhiannon]

Who the fuck was that vicar?

He ran a web forum with his missus. And he really was a vicar - CofE.

I wasn't popular there and ended up being chased from the streets with burning brands.

[Rhiannon]

It took you a few words to say what it took me nearly two hundred to say. So it goes

At least you managed yours without referencing an averagely funny sci fi sitcom.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Nearly,

We already do. It's why the Steven Weinberg quote about it taking religion to make good people do evi has always been nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? I agree that it's too narrowly drawn - "dogmatism" rather than religion specifically would have made the point better - but the thrust of the argument stands: the moment someone thinks that in no circumstance could he be wrong, then otherwise good people will tend to do bad things.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Again the problem is as mentioned earlier 'removing religion' if you are an atheist only makes sense as meaning changing what humans are to such an extent that it becomes a pointless question.

So how would you feel about removing religion and replacing is with scepticism as an alternative?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

Yes, I understand, but is there anything other than religion that offers an afterlife? Because that seems to me up be a pretty big driver in a lot of what we see.

But surely the point is that religion doesn't actually offer an afterlife at all - just the bonkers promise of it if you follow the rules. Wouldn't teaching rationalism and scepticism help give the lie to that supposed offer?

[Stranger]

The whole idea that theism is somehow a cause rather than simply an effect by anyone who is atheist to be simply bizarre. If there is no god then it's simply a manifestation of our natures, and one based on a number of things that are useful to us. Removing whatever it is about us that causes it would change us to such an extent that we could have no idea of the outcome.

I don't quite see what you're suggesting. We can't change human nature but we seem to have, at least in many parts of the world, successfully grown out of (for example) burning unfortunate women as witches, so I don't see why we couldn't eventually grow out of religion more generally.

Surely irrational beliefs, like religion and other superstitions, are to be discouraged?

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

But surely the point is that religion doesn't actually offer an afterlife at all - just the bonkers promise of it if you follow the rules. Wouldn't teaching rationalism and scepticism help give the lie to that supposed offer?

I'm not disagreeing. But it's not what a lot of people seem to want. It seems many want at least the hope of an afterlife of some kind; religion offers certainty.

[floo]

I'm not disagreeing. But it's not what a lot of people seem to want. It seems many want at least the hope of an afterlife of some kind; religion offers certainty.

I wonder why people wish for an afterlife?

[Udayana]

Because this one is such rubbish?

[Rhiannon]

I wonder why people wish for an afterlife?

Start a thread on it. I think it could be interesting.

[ippy]

Except they are in certain schools.

Secularising all schools would lead to a more homogeneous population, I think it's the only way.

ippy

[Rhiannon]

Because this one is such rubbish?

For me I'd want one that was the good bits of this but without the bad. I think in particular people struggle with the ending of relationships and want those to continue.

[Shaker]

I wonder why people wish for an afterlife?

Apart from the desire to have any kind of existence continue no matter how miserable (up to a point, however), the hope for ultimate justice has a lot to do with it, I think.

After all, If I'm right and there's no restorative and retributive afterlife where everybody gets their desserts according to their behaviour, all those Nazi war criminals who skipped off to other countries after WWII and lived long lives, or unidentified murderers (for example) simply got away with it scot free. Starving children who live short and miserable lives of pain and hunger know only pain and hunger in the world and then die. Human justice is flawed: it doesn't always find the right people, or sometimes it finds the wrong people and punishes them instead. That's not an easy thing to swallow - yet we have to be on our guard against taking what we would prefer to be the case as actually being the case. However understandable, that's just wishful thinking. We naturally want the good boys and girls to get a gold star and a sweetie, and the naughty ones to get detention and lines. In real life that's simply not always possible, so the principle is extended beyond death where many people have wanted to believe that someone (or something) will take care of what couldn't be done in life.

[Rhiannon]

The notion of restorative justice doesn't bother me. Maybe it should.

Loss is the hardest thing for me, but it has to be faced. Because of events in my family I've always been acutely aware that life can turn on a sixpence, even more so since having children in not the easiest of circumstances. To not be able to face loss would mean not loving them, or anyone. And I prefer my world with as much love in it as possible.

[ippy]

The notion of restorative justice doesn't bother me. Maybe it should.

Loss is the hardest thing for me, but it has to be faced. Because of events in my family I've always been acutely aware that life can turn on a sixpence, even more so since having children in not the easiest of circumstances. To not be able to face loss would mean not loving them, or anyone. And I prefer my world with as much love in it as possible.

I'll go with that Rhi.

My brother was over here recently from Australia, we were all outside sitting in the garden just talking general family and my youngest son the rebel hard man now 35yrs was expressing his love of family to my brother, much to my delight in front of my bro, while my bro and I both have a high regard for each other my bro isn't quite as open as I am, he's a bit old fashioned, I've always encouraged my boys to say whatever they feel when the time is right and both of my boys still kiss their Dad, as I think it should be in any loving family, why not?

ippy