Author Topic: Antitheism  (Read 31560 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #175 on: May 22, 2016, 02:54:50 PM »
Why would anything be suboptimal in a universe created by an omnipotent and good god?

This is attempting to explain one logical absurdity with another. As I have pointed out before, free will is a nonsense from the point of view of an omnipotent, omniscient creator. Everything (including our choices) would be as a direct result of its creative actions, unless it introduced a truly element, which would also be its responsibility.

No, it isn't. We observe that "goodness" is an abstraction in people's minds. Apparently a subjective (as not everybody agrees about exactly what is good) one. If you want to argue that it is something else; something external and objective, it is up to you to supply the evidence or reasoning.

The "false dichotomy" arguments don't actually make sense. If you make god's nature the standard for good, you are essentially siding with "good is whatever god wants" and rejecting the idea that god chooses to be good. Apart from "might is right" why should we accept god's nature as being the standard?
Well it comes down to definition of Goodness I suppose. I can quite easily see why a sugar daddy or gumball type God is not a good thing......to you it is the very definition of goodness.

The very idea of omnipotence any way is undermined by the insistence on having God as separate from Goodness so your bringing it up here is self undermined.

I note also your objections depend on goodness being relative that is an assertion which needs proving as much as any absolute goodness.

The rest is just determinism.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #176 on: May 22, 2016, 02:59:27 PM »
I think natural things are going to cause suffering because pain is an indicator that something is not right and therefore has a natural purpose. Let us not forget that God has also given the humans the means of preventing and alleviating suffering but anaestheasia  against everything is not necessarily a good thing.

God is not your normal being, he is not contingent and he is  ultimate. He is not a material thing.

Your problems stem from your inability to think outside a tight philosophical box and dogmatic adherence to relativism.

Your desire to believe is touching, but it really is time to grow up and leave the fantasy behind. Humanity does not have the capability to prevent all suffering, or even most suffering. Stop making up excuses for your God. Face up to it like an adult - either the god you believe in creates and allows the suffering of innocents, or you are believing in something that cannot be.

Have the courage to question it, Vlad. Otherwise you're stuck in an infantilising comfort blanket of a belief system.

Stranger

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #177 on: May 22, 2016, 03:08:14 PM »
Well it comes down to definition of Goodness I suppose. I can quite easily see why a sugar daddy or gumball type God is not a good thing......to you it is the very definition of goodness.

I said nothing of the sort.

Does god lack the imagination to create a world free of suffering and evil without being a "sugar daddy"? You said that that suffering was not permanent; so what of the time when it is over ('heaven')? Why not start out like that and miss out all the evil and suffering?

The very idea of omnipotence any way is undermined by the insistence on having God as separate from Goodness so your bringing it up here is self undermined.

Which part of my post is this supposed to relate to?

I note also your objections depend on goodness being relative that is an assertion which needs proving as much as any absolute goodness.

Goodness is a concept in people's minds; that isn't an assertion, it's an observation. If you think it got there from some god (or other external agency) and is (despite observed differences) objective, that is for you to argue for or to provide the evidence for.

The rest is just determinism.

There is, logically, only determinism or randomness.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #178 on: May 22, 2016, 03:11:21 PM »

Goodness is a concept in people's minds; that isn't an assertion, it's an observation.
Yes, but that adds absolutely nothing to our debate.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #179 on: May 22, 2016, 03:13:11 PM »
I said nothing of the sort.

Does god lack the imagination to create a world free of suffering and evil without being a "sugar daddy"? You said that that suffering was not permanent; so what of the time when it is over ('heaven')? Why not start out like that and miss out all the evil and suffering?
That is a good question but a lousy conclusion.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #180 on: May 22, 2016, 03:15:26 PM »
Your desire to believe is touching, but it really is time to grow up and leave the fantasy behind. Humanity does not have the capability to prevent all suffering, or even most suffering. Stop making up excuses for your God. Face up to it like an adult - either the god you believe in creates and allows the suffering of innocents, or you are believing in something that cannot be.

Have the courage to question it, Vlad. Otherwise you're stuck in an infantilising comfort blanket of a belief system.
A mere ''mother knows best type post''.
If it helps..................... blame God.
Outside of that.............. piss off.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #181 on: May 22, 2016, 03:16:57 PM »
That is a good question but a lousy conclusion.

Except that non-suffering in heaven is supposed to be the ideal state. So what's the purpose of it here?

Shaker

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #182 on: May 22, 2016, 03:17:54 PM »
A "fuck off" (hastily edited) and a "piss off" within a couple of hours.

Your debating skills are well down to their usual level, Vladdychops.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #183 on: May 22, 2016, 03:20:08 PM »
A mere ''mother knows best type post''.
If it helps..................... blame God.
Outside of that.............. piss off.

I realise that your adolescent brain finds it difficult to engage with adult conversation. Of course most teenagers outgrow it but I fear it may be rather late in the day in your case.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #184 on: May 22, 2016, 03:20:42 PM »
A "fuck off" (hastily edited) and a "piss off" within a couple of hours.

Your debating skills are well down to their usual level, Vladdychops.

Debate......you mean it wasn't a rhetorical post whose sole purpose was character assassination?

Stranger

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #185 on: May 22, 2016, 03:21:00 PM »
Yes, but that adds absolutely nothing to our debate.

Unless you have an argument or evidence that it is anything else, it is very relevant.

That is a good question but a lousy conclusion.

That was three questions (hint: count the question marks) and no conclusion.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #186 on: May 22, 2016, 03:22:13 PM »
I realise that your adolescent brain finds it difficult to engage with adult conversation. Of course most teenagers outgrow it but I fear it may be rather late in the day in your case.
...........sorry, please piss off.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #187 on: May 22, 2016, 03:26:02 PM »
Just to note that debating does not consist of just lying about what the other person has said.
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Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #188 on: May 22, 2016, 03:27:02 PM »
...........sorry, please piss off.

No, you're right, I made a mistake. I spend quite a lot of time with teenagers and they are all unfailingly more polite and charming than you ever manage.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #189 on: May 22, 2016, 03:28:29 PM »
Just to note that debating does not consist of just lying about what the other person has said.

But Vlad would have to stop posting altogether if he stopped doing that.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #190 on: May 22, 2016, 03:30:29 PM »
Except that non-suffering in heaven is supposed to be the ideal state. So what's the purpose of it here?
I thought I had outlined that. Pain as warning in a material world.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #191 on: May 22, 2016, 03:40:15 PM »
I thought I had outlined that. Pain as warning in a material world.

Pain and suffering aren't the same thing. And not all pain can be acted on or relieved.

The suffering caused by the loss of a child warns against what?

The pain of drowning warns against what?

Gonnagle

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #192 on: May 22, 2016, 03:46:07 PM »
Dear Rhiannon,

Quote
Your desire to believe is touching, but it really is time to grow up and leave the fantasy behind. Humanity does not have the capability to prevent all suffering, or even most suffering. Stop making up excuses for your God. Face up to it like an adult - either the god you believe in creates and allows the suffering of innocents, or you are believing in something that cannot be.

Have the courage to question it, Vlad. Otherwise you're stuck in an infantilising comfort blanket of a belief system.

Where are you coming from in the above post, I have not witnessed humanity trying to prevent all or most suffering, sure! There are some scientists, doctors trying to prevent suffering but all I see is humanity getting in their way, but I suppose necessity is the mother of all, and I certainly don't see any world wide push to cure suffering, it is certainly within our capacity to cure, God has given us that, what I see is, you mate are the wrong colour/religion or you have something I want and I am going to have it, with or without your permission, when humanity realises that we are all in it together then we might see a real push for a cure all, we could start with asking that nice man Mr Cameron to scrap Trident, after all there was an advertisement that told us, all we need to defeat cancer is more funding.

Now there's an idea, scrap all weapons of mass destruction, give the money to the scientists, hell we could use the money to train more scientists, but sure as eggs are eggs there will be some nice chap thinking, now where's the profit in this. >:(

Gonnagle.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #193 on: May 22, 2016, 03:47:41 PM »
Pain and suffering aren't the same thing. And not all pain can be acted on or relieved.

The suffering caused by the loss of a child warns against what?

The pain of drowning warns against what?
Again pain is a warning mechanism and has no other evolved purpose but you are right that the pain is not always relievable.....except by divine intervention.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #194 on: May 22, 2016, 03:49:29 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
The pain of drowning warns against what?

Forgetting to fill your oxygen tanks?

Wouldn't it make a change if just for once someone who believed in a god of the omnis finally had a go at explaining the observable facts of babies with brain cancer. Trollboy clearly isn't up to the job, though to be fair I think I once heard Rowan Williams use the "it's a mystery" cop out too so he's in good company I guess.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #195 on: May 22, 2016, 03:52:09 PM »
#192 Ask Vlad, Gonners, it's his post I'm responding to.

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #196 on: May 22, 2016, 03:53:24 PM »
Rhi,

Forgetting to fill your oxygen tanks?

Wouldn't it make a change if just for once someone who believed in a god of the omnis finally had a go at explaining the observable facts of babies with brain cancer. Trollboy clearly isn't up to the job, though to be fair I think I once heard Rowan Williams use the "it's a mystery" cop out too so he's in good company I guess.

Yes, at least Welby came up with 'I don't know, I don't understand' when asked about suffering.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #197 on: May 22, 2016, 03:53:29 PM »
Gonners,

Quote
...it is certainly within our capacity to cure, God has given us...

But why would this "morally good" god of yours give us the illnesses in the first place and then sit back while he waited to see whether we could cure them? It amuses him? He was was bored one wet Wednesday afternoon so thought he'd torture his special creation just to pass the time? What?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Rhiannon

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #198 on: May 22, 2016, 03:55:48 PM »
Again pain is a warning mechanism and has no other evolved purpose but you are right that the pain is not always relievable.....except by divine intervention.

God's not very efficient at doing that. How come?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Antitheism
« Reply #199 on: May 22, 2016, 03:56:04 PM »
Rhi,

Quote
Yes, at least Welby came up with 'I don't know, I don't understand' when asked about suffering.

But why stop there in the face of such an ineluctable contradiction to his claims about "God"?
"Don't make me come down there."

God