Author Topic: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?  (Read 71844 times)

Gonnagle

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #75 on: May 18, 2016, 09:30:15 PM »
Dear Berational,

Quote
Don't insert a god or anything else for that matter. Investigate yes, but make up answers to fill the gaps no.

I don't insert God, he is already there, what I never say is, end of subject, Godidit, but I  want to know, how Godidit.

But I agree with your other posts, we fall down in defining God, Christians can point to our Lord Jesus, but that is only a bit of what God is.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #76 on: May 18, 2016, 09:36:25 PM »
But "just is" seems to be a good enough answer for "why is there a god?"
Yeh, but some how just is doesn't seem appropriate for nature with it's cause and effects and yet we have Russell and Dawkins settling for ''just is'' when they wouldn't dream of settling for that in any other context.

Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #77 on: May 18, 2016, 09:56:54 PM »
I don't insert God, he is already there...

Except god isn't already there. The beliefs in all sorts of different (often mutually exclusive) gods exist in some people's minds. Many other unevidenced beliefs exist in people's minds too; vampires, ghosts, astrology and so on. Are they (rather than just the beliefs) "already there"?
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #78 on: May 18, 2016, 10:05:10 PM »
Yeh, but some how just is doesn't seem appropriate for nature with it's cause and effects...

Why not? For example, just taking relativity literally, leads to a four dimensional "block universe" - time and causality being properties of the contents.

This is the ever present double standard that theists apply: "we must have an explanation and cause for everything.... oh, except when it comes to god, of course..."

It's a tad silly, really.
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Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2016, 08:27:48 AM »
Like black holes? Or dark matter?

There is no real evidence for black holes or dark matter.

Actually, there is evidence for black holes.

As for Dark Matter and indeed Dark Energy....they are provisional hypotheses used to explain real phenomena and unlike Christianity, nobody is required to believe them.

What's more, Dark Matter and Dark Energy could styill be kicked into touch if someone comes along with a better hypothesis that's been put together after further observations.

Contrast that with Christianity where nothing analogous ever happens.
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Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2016, 08:35:23 AM »
Yes it is.

No one has defined gravity, but it's still an answer.

The theory of gravity is our best explanation for certain observable phenomena.

You have a better theory? 
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Dorothy Parker

Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2016, 08:52:52 AM »
But what credit can we 'evolved humans' give to ourselves.  After all, we have nothing to do with causing evolution; we are simply the outcome of it.

You say that like it's something to be ashamed of.

I trust you're not searching the Theory of Evolution for some grand religious/philosophical meaning because you won't find one. 

Why?  Because scientific theories are neither moral of immoral - they just are.

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Sassy

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2016, 09:04:48 AM »
Are some here actually bothered about the 'TRUTH' or just looking for something that coincides with what they already THINK is the truth ????
So rejecting ANYTHING that doesn't 'fit in'?

Nick

The first of three should surely be 'Gods Truth'.

What you wrote Nick, suggests that there is only one type of truth that truth is anything pertaining to ourselves.

Gods truth comes from without and is independent of us all.

Whilst it changes the individual it is still a choice between his truth and whatever we accept as truth.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2016, 09:25:03 AM »
The first of three should surely be 'Gods Truth'.

What you wrote Nick, suggests that there is only one type of truth that truth is anything pertaining to ourselves.

Gods truth comes from without and is independent of us all.

Whilst it changes the individual it is still a choice between his truth and whatever we accept as truth.

And your god's truth contains his wish to torture us for all eternity.
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torridon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2016, 09:38:43 AM »
The first of three should surely be 'Gods Truth'.

What you wrote Nick, suggests that there is only one type of truth that truth is anything pertaining to ourselves.

Gods truth comes from without and is independent of us all.

Whilst it changes the individual it is still a choice between his truth and whatever we accept as truth.

There is no reliable way to verify which truth claims allegedly from God are authentic and which are bogus.  All claims are from humans and no human is infallible.

Bubbles

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2016, 09:48:52 AM »
There is no reliable way to verify which truth claims allegedly from God are authentic and which are bogus.  All claims are from humans and no human is infallible.

No there isn't, but if you stand well back there are things you can pull through

https://integralchurch.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/15-great-principles-shared-by-all-religions/

Those are quite enough for anyone to aim for and if God isn't behind them at all, well at least we might have tried and hopefully led a good life.

I don't see the need to get hung up on the detail, which is what joining a religion does. ( or I think it does) I have never understood why anyone needs to define things so much.

I can share those values with atheists, it's not a problem.

Whether there is something out there or not, I think those things have value. It's win win really.

I just chose that web site at random but it's the shared ( good hearted )things that religions share that interest me.

That's God and represents God, to me.

If I'm wrong, well I'm can cope with that.

 :)

« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 09:59:58 AM by Rose »

Bubbles

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2016, 09:57:57 AM »
Interfaith sites are great places to find shared values.

http://www.interfaith.org.uk/publications/all-publications/all-publications/21-connect-different-faiths-shared-values/file

People just follow them their own way.

I think it is something you have to bash out for yourself as you go through life.  ( the truth)

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2016, 10:34:09 AM »
Rose,

Quote
No there isn't, but if you stand well back there are things you can pull through

https://integralchurch.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/15-great-principles-shared-by-all-religions/

All of which collectively can be summarised in two words: be nice.

Which is fine and dandy, except many of those same religions also happen to say lots of awful things and moreover they know these things to be right because that's their "faith". 

Quote
Those are quite enough for anyone to aim for and if God isn't behind them at all, well at least we might have tried and hopefully led a good life.

I'm all for leading a good life: junk the religious bits, call it moral philosophy and use it as a useful rationale for decent behaviour and you'll get no argument from me. Problem is though, most religions go waaaay beyond that - not are they keen to hang on the religious claims too, they see them as central to their being. 

Quote
I don't see the need to get hung up on the detail, which is what joining a religion does. ( or I think it does) I have never understood why anyone needs to define things so much.

I can share those values with atheists, it's not a problem.

Fair enough.

Quote
Whether there is something out there or not, I think those things have value. It's win win really.

Not really. We have the inherent altruism anyway - the various additional claims of fact they make underpinned by faith and backed up with menaces are all their own. That's the problem.

Quote
I just chose that web site at random but it's the shared ( good hearted )things that religions share that interest me.

That's God and represents God, to me.

If I'm wrong, well I'm can cope with that.

Well, essentially you're proposing "God" as only a hypothesis - would that the religions did the same.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2016, 10:51:25 AM by bluehillside »
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Brownie

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2016, 10:44:58 AM »
Interfaith sites are great places to find shared values.

http://www.interfaith.org.uk/publications/all-publications/all-publications/21-connect-different-faiths-shared-values/file

People just follow them their own way.

I think it is something you have to bash out for yourself as you go through life.  ( the truth)

I am beginning to sound as though I agree with everything you say and have no thoughts of my own but it is a fact that I go along with a lot of what you say.  I'm very keen on interfaith, always have been, and it is worthwhile for all people of faith to learn about and understand other faiths - and to meet people of good heart who worship differently.  It fosters respect too.  However it doesn't work for those who aren't at least fairly liberal in their beliefs.  Never mind about those for the moment :-).
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Gonnagle

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2016, 10:52:36 AM »
Dear Rose,

15 Great Principles Shared by All Religions

Quote
The Golden Rule / Law of Reciprocity – The cornerstone of religious understanding. “Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.” – Christianity

Excellent, the cornerstone of religious understanding, this what Christ was saying, this is where Christians should start and finish.

Quote
Honor Thy Father and Mother – Knowing them is the key to knowing ourselves. The day will come when we shall wish we had known them better.

A tough ask for some in society but in general very good advice.

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Speak the Truth – “Sincerity is the way of heaven, and to think how to be sincere is the way of a man.” – Confucius

Another tough one, speaking the truth can get you into a lot of trouble, takes guts sometimes to speak the truth.


Quote
It’s More Blessed to Give than to Receive – Generosity, charity and kindness will open an individual to an unbounded reservoir of riches.

THis one is a real cracker, what is that about helping others, small kindnesses, that buzz, serving your fellow man, this one should be explored more.

Quote
Heaven is Within – “Even as the scent dwells within the flower, so God within thine own heart forever abides.” – Sikhism

Can't argue with this one, God truly is within us all.

Quote
Love Thy Neighbor / Conquer With Love / All You Need is Love – Acts of faith, prayer and deep meditation provide us with the strength that allows love for our fellow man to become an abiding part of our lives. Love is a unifying force.

Corinthians book 1 verse 13 ( my lucky number ) the Beatles have it spot on, Love is all you need.

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Blessed Are the Peacemakers – When people live in the awareness that there is a close kinship between all individuals and nations, peace is the natural result.

Instead of looking for differences, look for what we have in common.


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You Reap What You Sow – This is the great mystery of human life. Aware or unaware, all are ruled by this inevitable law of nature.

This is a law, a truth, be aware of your actions, another one to think deeply about.

Quote
Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone – The blessings of life are deeper than what can be appreciated by the senses.

So true, we need our art, literature, music, these things feed us.


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Do No Harm – If someone tries to hurt another, it means that she is perceiving that person as something separate and foreign from herself.

Hurting someone is such a fleeting thing, you usually regret it in the long run.

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Forgiveness – The most beautiful thing a man can do is to forgive wrong. – Judaism

To forgive, to rise above, another tough one, but I do think when you forgive your own healing begins.

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Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged – This principle is an expression of the underlying truth that mankind is one great family, and that we all spring from a common source.

One of Our Lords belters, whole books could be written on this commandment.


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Be Slow to Anger – Anger clouds the mind in the very moments that clarity and objectivity are needed most. “He who holds back rising anger like a rolling chariot, him I call a real driver; others only hold the reins.” – Buddha

One I have learned with age ;)


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There is But One God / God is Love – Nature, Being, The Absolute. Whatever name man chooses, there is but one God. All people and all things are of one essence.

One God many names.


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Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

For me this one is aimed at those stupid literal Christians, scripture is there to make you think not what to think.

Excellent link Rose, thank you. ;)

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2016, 11:01:34 AM »
Gonners,

Quote
For me this one is aimed at those stupid literal Christians...

Just wondering how you reconcile that with:

Quote
Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged – This principle is an expression of the underlying truth that mankind is one great family, and that we all spring from a common source.

 ;)
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Bubbles

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2016, 11:01:52 AM »
Rose,

All of which collectively can be summarised in two words: be nice.

Which is fine and dandy, except many of those same religions also happen to say lots of awful things and moreover they know these things to be right because that's their "faith". 

I'm all for leading a good life: junk the religious bits, call it moral philosophy and use it as a useful rationale for decent behaviour and you'll get no argument from me. Problem is though, most religions go waaaay beyond that - not are they keen to hang on the religious claims too, they see them as central to their being. 

Fair enough.

Not really. We have the inherent altruism anyway - the various additional claims of fact they make underpinned by faith and backed up with menaces are all their own. That's the problem.

Well, essentially you're proposing "God" as only a hypothesis - would that the religions did the same.

Sometimes I think all you can really do is try and use the good bits to combat the bad bits so hopefully have a good influence overall.

I think that is what interfaith tries to do.

Unfortunately the ones who need to go and have their horizons broadened most, tend not to go, but I think interfaith is important because of the people it can influence ,and in turn who they can influence.

 :)


Brownie

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2016, 11:04:22 AM »
That is a great post Gonnagle, thank you.

R: Unfortunately the ones who need to go and have their horizons broadened most, tend not to go

Unfortunately true, I've even heard one or two people (long time ago), say that ''interfaith doesn't work''.  It doesn't work because they are not prepared to accept that someone else doesn't think the same, but are still worth understanding.  Their loss.
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Gordon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2016, 11:07:19 AM »
I've always found Bertrand Russell's 'Liberal Decalogue' to be good advice.

1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.

2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.

3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.

4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.

5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.

6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.

7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.

9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.

10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/05/02/a-liberal-decalogue-bertrand-russell/

Gonnagle

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2016, 11:09:48 AM »
Dear Blue,

You dog :P :P

Yeah I ain't no saint, take the plank out of my own eye ::)

Dear Mods,

Could you suspend our Blue, why!! sometimes he is so bloody right >:(

Cheers Blue my first smile of the day. ;)

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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2016, 11:13:46 AM »
Gordon,

Quote
I've always found Bertrand Russell's 'Liberal Decalogue' to be good advice.

1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything.

2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light.

3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed.

4. When you meet with opposition, even if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory.

5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found.

6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you.

7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

8. Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent than in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter.

9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it.

10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool’s paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness.

https://www.brainpickings.org/2012/05/02/a-liberal-decalogue-bertrand-russell/

Thanks Gordon - much better!
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2016, 11:15:48 AM »
Gonners,

Quote
You dog :P :P

Yeah I ain't no saint, take the plank out of my own eye ::)

Dear Mods,

Could you suspend our Blue, why!! sometimes he is so bloody right >:(

Cheers Blue my first smile of the day. ;)

It was done with love my friend, done with love  :-*
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2016, 11:17:28 AM »
Reminds me of this older thread: http://goo.gl/qD1IRl
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2016, 11:22:12 AM »
Dear Gordon,

Should we start a thread, Russell's 10 verses Religions 15 :P :P but then I see a lot of comparisons in each offering ;)

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torridon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2016, 11:33:36 AM »
Sometimes I think all you can really do is try and use the good bits to combat the bad bits so hopefully have a good influence overall.

I think that is what interfaith tries to do.

Unfortunately the ones who need to go and have their horizons broadened most, tend not to go, but I think interfaith is important because of the people it can influence ,and in turn who they can influence.

 :)

Our local catholic church has attempted interfaith services with our local mosque on occasion, but although the immam and the priest might be encouraging and enthusiastic about it, to be honest there is virtually zero enthusiasm for it amongst the congregations from either side. They are really not interested.