My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Should we start a thread, Russell's 10 verses Religions 15 but then I see a lot of comparisons in each offering

There is overlap, but for me the most important of Russell's is the one he put first: do not feel absolutely certain of anything, on which the religious principles are silent. Uncertainty it seems to me is the bulwark against extreme behaviour - how could I commit an irrevocable act when I think I could be wrong? - whereas presumably the religions start from certainty about their god(s) so the principle is unobtainable from the get-go.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Sorry mate but do not feel absolute certainty for me runs  through most of those 15, Judge not is one, but,

Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

Always think, never think you have found the truth, only say you have found a truth. Confucius.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

Our local catholic church has attempted interfaith services with our local mosque on occasion, but although the immam and the priest might be encouraging and enthusiastic about it, to be honest there is virtually zero enthusiasm for it amongst the congregations from either side. They are really not interested.

What's the age make-up of both congregations? Predominantly older?

[torridon]

What's the age make-up of both congregations? Predominantly older?

Probably a slight older bias among the catholics, not so sure about the muslims, but perhaps more younger people I think.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Sorry mate but do not feel absolute certainty for me runs  through most of those 15, Judge not is one, but,

Quote
Follow the Spirit of the Scriptures, Not the Words – “Study the words, no doubt, but look behind them to the thought they indicate; And having found it, throw the words away, as chaff when you have sifted out the grain.” – Hinduism

Always think, never think you have found the truth, only say you have found a truth. Confucius.

Well, you did once tell me that no argument could ever dissuade you from the fact of god. Sounds pretty certain to me...

[Brownie]

What's the age make-up of both congregations? Predominantly older?

Coincidentally, that happened at my ex-Church, Shaker, a very big church with all age groups in the congregation.  The priest in charge there was very keen on it, not only with people of other faiths but 'Interchurch' stuff.  It seemed to work quite well but out of a congregation of approximately 1000 at that time, there were only a few who joined and contributed on a regular basis. Those that did were very active.

I never heard anything against it, indeed it was viewed warmly, but people only have so much time and are often involved in other things.  I liked it and loved hearing about it but didn't go along to any meetings, too shy, didn't feel as though I'd have anything to contribute.  Still there were people who were committed to the ideal and attended regularly.  I've no idea if it still happens there, it's been a few years since I was a congregant.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

No matter, more power to the Imam and the Priest, Blessed are the Peacemakers, I hope and pray they keep the lines of communication open, us stupid theists will get it one day, what God truly wants, his children to live in Peace, all his children.

Gonnagle.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Well, you did once tell me that no argument could ever dissuade you from the fact of god. Sounds pretty certain to me...

Are you going to keep beating me over the head with that, I am pretty certain, lets say 99.9%, but always that healthy little grain of doubt, but in my mind ( mine ) atheism is, well I am in a good mood, atheism is.................................. actually lets put it this way, I have tried to walk in the atheist shoes, they don't fit

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Are you going to keep beating me over the head with that, I am pretty certain, lets say 99.9%, but always that healthy little grain of doubt, but in my mind ( mine ) atheism is, well I am in a good mood, atheism is.................................. actually lets put it this way, I have tried to walk in the atheist shoes, they don't fit

Yeah sorry. That's the thing with certainty though - it's well, you know, certain. No little grain of doubt allowed. I'm always struck by the religious use of "in the sure and certain knowledge" and similar phrases when you'll never find it in science - Russell vs religion again. And the problem with that is that it pervades everything. Way back when the shias and the sunnis disagreed over whether Mohammed preferred lace-ups over slip ons or something equally trivial and they've been killing each other over it ever since. Freud's "narcissism of small differences" for you.

But isn't certainty essential to religion though: it's tribally cohesive so if you're to kill the fellow in the next tribe you need to be sure of your ground. Which is functionally sound, but it breaks down when the tribes get too big (and nuked up). That's the problem with the inter-faith efforts: all tea and garibaldi biscuits when they're in the same room, but as soon as the other folks leave with a cheery wave it's back to, "well that was lovely children, but of course we know the real facts don't we, whereas those bozos..."

Hey, I'm writing like you now - it's catching! Take it as a compliment 

[Sassy]

And your god's truth contains his wish to torture us for all eternity.

Christ would have not died had that been the truth. As for torture what torture.
I suppose being separated from God would appear a torture.
Other than that if you don't want it then you know what to do. If God as you believe doesn't exist whatever are you harping on about. Ever thought some of us know God because God is....

[Sassy]

There is no reliable way to verify which truth claims allegedly from God are authentic and which are bogus.  All claims are from humans and no human is infallible.

Christ is the way to have the truth verified. If you have never tried it you cannot make that statement.

[torridon]

Christ is the way to have the truth verified. If you have never tried it you cannot make that statement.

Likewise, one could say - have you tried the Muslim way ?  if you have never tried it you cannot make that statement

[Bramble]

Dear Blue,

Are you going to keep beating me over the head with that, I am pretty certain, lets say 99.9%, but always that healthy little grain of doubt, but in my mind ( mine ) atheism is, well I am in a good mood, atheism is.................................. actually lets put it this way, I have tried to walk in the atheist shoes, they don't fit

Gonnagle.

Forgive me for prying but I'm struggling to reconcile this with

Fine, I am quite happy with don't know, but I am not fine with taking God out of the equation, which for me brings us winging all the way back to "what is God" I don't know!!

If you don't know what God is then what exactly are you so very sure of when you say God?

I only ask because this is something that has long puzzled me in relation to apophatic theology, which won't say anything positive about God yet seems quite happy to go along with assertions of belief. Belief in what?

We can go right back to the 6th century Syrian monk Dionysius who stated that God is 'beyond affirmation and negation'. Where does that leave believers and atheists alike?

Even Aquinas admitted that he didn't know what he meant when he spoke of God's attributes. Why then did he speak of them?

Eckhart prayed to be rid of god for God's sake because he realised that his ideas about God were just idols. His contemporary Tauler expressed the same thoughts. Tillich said that nearly all theology was idolatry. Yet none of these folk gave up belief in God. What did they believe in?

I don't mean to put you on the spot but we the hell-bound get a bit confused sometimes 

 

[Shaker]

Good to see you back again Bramble - I was starting to fear you'd given up on us.

[floo]

Christ is the way to have the truth verified. If you have never tried it you cannot make that statement.

You believe the guy was all that is claimed for him, but there is no evidence that is so. The human imagination isn't evidence.

[Shaker]

Christ is the way to have the truth verified. If you have never tried it you cannot make that statement.

What about those who have tried it and found nothing in it?

[Bramble]

Good to see you back again Bramble - I was starting to fear you'd given up on us.

No, it's just less effort to function in the read-only mode 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Bramble,

Good to see you back.

If you don't know what God is then what exactly are you so very sure of when you say God?

I only ask because this is something that has long puzzled me in relation to apophatic theology, which won't say anything positive about God yet seems quite happy to go along with assertions of belief. Belief in what?

We can go right back to the 6th century Syrian monk Dionysius who stated that God is 'beyond affirmation and negation'. Where does that leave believers and atheists alike?

Even Aquinas admitted that he didn't know what he meant when he spoke of God's attributes. Why then did he speak of them?

Eckhart prayed to be rid of god for God's sake because he realised that his ideas about God were just idols. His contemporary Tauler expressed the same thoughts. Tillich said that nearly all theology was idolatry. Yet none of these folk gave up belief in God. What did they believe in?

I don't mean to put you on the spot but we the hell-bound get a bit confused sometimes 

It's a paradox isn't it: the moment you try to say something about "God" the effort collapses into fallacy, non sequitur, mistake etc but unless you can say something about this God then all you have is white noise. Maybe the problem lies somewhere in the unbounded premise: if you say something about what God is or thinks then necessarily you're also saying something about what God isn't and doesn't think, and who is the simple believer to bound his God that way?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bramble,

I will try to clarify my position ( mine ).

My journey is on going, I once prayed to God, but I no longer do that, I pray to Our Lord Jesus, Our Lord gives me something tangible, the Cross gives me a symbol.

which won't say anything positive about God yet seems quite happy to go along with assertions of belief. Belief in what?

I can say positive things about God, for me, He/She/It is persistent, persistent in my life, but when it comes to Jesus I feel on firmer ground, I have the Gospels, Our Lords teachings his message, everytime I study the Gospels ( study, not just read ) my belief, my faith is reaffirmed.

We can go right back to the 6th century Syrian monk Dionysius who stated that God is 'beyond affirmation and negation'. Where does that leave believers and atheists alike?

Glad you asked, it was Karen Armstrong who put me on to "walk the walk first" God comes later, so if I see an atheist walking the walk I think, God can do the rest.

For me, God does not want all this worship nonsense, he wants his children to live in peace and harmony, when we do that, we then all truly worship God.

Does that help

Gonnagle.

[SweetPea]

Gonners, I love that......"walk the walk first, God comes later". Think that's how it is for me. I talk to Jesus, always have done... and after all, it is through Jesus that we reach God.

[Dicky Underpants]

Forgive me for prying but I'm struggling to reconcile this with

If you don't know what God is then what exactly are you so very sure of when you say God?

I only ask because this is something that has long puzzled me in relation to apophatic theology, which won't say anything positive about God yet seems quite happy to go along with assertions of belief. Belief in what?

We can go right back to the 6th century Syrian monk Dionysius who stated that God is 'beyond affirmation and negation'. Where does that leave believers and atheists alike?

Even Aquinas admitted that he didn't know what he meant when he spoke of God's attributes. Why then did he speak of them?

Eckhart prayed to be rid of god for God's sake because he realised that his ideas about God were just idols. His contemporary Tauler expressed the same thoughts. Tillich said that nearly all theology was idolatry. Yet none of these folk gave up belief in God. What did they believe in?

I don't mean to put you on the spot but we the hell-bound get a bit confused sometimes 

Excellent summary.

All these fine folks seem to be milestones on the path to the 'non-realist God'. Somehow, I've always thought that belief in the latter is little more than sexed-up atheism.

[Dicky Underpants]

No, it's just less effort to function in the read-only mode 

Agreed to that

[wigginhall]

Bramble wrote:

Eckhart prayed to be rid of god for God's sake because he realised that his ideas about God were just idols. His contemporary Tauler expressed the same thoughts. Tillich said that nearly all theology was idolatry. Yet none of these folk gave up belief in God. What did they believe in?

Nice post, Bramble.  I used to read these people avidly, along with 'The Cloud of Unknowing'.   I think your point about Eckhart hits the nail, that all ideas and conceptions of God are seen as idols, in 'The Cloud' seen as obstacles.

But also for the mystics, God is not a thing in the universe, but a dissolution of normal consciousness, so that there is One, or if you like, None.  In other words, normal ego-consciousness has gone.

Well, the Eastern religions have gone further than this, saying that belief itself is nonsense, since it depends on dualism (self/other dualism).    There are probably a few Christians who dare to say this. 

I think you are right that there is nothing left to believe in, but on the other hand, there are many symbols for this emptiness/fullness, or whatever you call it.  I don't know whether this is atheism or not.   In Zen, they say that hell isn't punishment, but just training!  I like it.

And I know that Gonners likes this, so here goes, no-thing, no-Gonners, no-Wigginhall, no-God. 

[Dicky Underpants]

Dear Bramble,

I will try to clarify my position ( mine ).

My journey is on going, I once prayed to God, but I no longer do that, I pray to Our Lord Jesus, Our Lord gives me something tangible, the Cross gives me a symbol.

I can say positive things about God, for me, He/She/It is persistent, persistent in my life, but when it comes to Jesus I feel on firmer ground, I have the Gospels, Our Lords teachings his message, everytime I study the Gospels ( study, not just read ) my belief, my faith is reaffirmed.

Gonners

Aren't you just a little bothered by the clear discrepancy of Jesus being portrayed as an apocalyptic prophet with an essentially Jewish message, and other areas where he is described as having a message for the whole world? (I reject the latter texts as add-ons, however noble they may sound)
What I get from Jesus is an example of courage, from someone who had a message of non-violence and forgiveness. These things are all wholesome, whatever else one might think about him. But I'd hardly call it 'firm ground', if you're after immutable, divine truth.

[Dicky Underpants]

  I don't know whether this is atheism or not.   In Zen, they say that hell isn't punishment, but just training!  I like it.

And I know that Gonners likes this, so here goes, no-thing, no-Gonners, no-Wigginhall, no-God.

On the other hand, "before Abraham was, I AM". Or perhaps "we weren't" - and I don't think that's the royal we.