My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?

[wigginhall]

On the other hand, "before Abraham was, I AM". Or perhaps "we weren't" - and I don't think that's the royal we.

Yes, quite a lot of people crow-bar Jesus into the ranks of the mystics; it's not difficult to do it.   The idea of pre-existence, the stuff about lilies, and so on, and giving up attachment.    I think it's religion that messes everything up. 

[Dicky Underpants]

Yes, quite a lot of people crow-bar Jesus into the ranks of the mystics; it's not difficult to do it.   The idea of pre-existence, the stuff about lilies, and so on, and giving up attachment.    I think it's religion that messes everything up.

'Take no thought for the morrow' or 'store up treasure in heaven'? Now those two ideas have scrambled a few heads. Maybe from the mystic's point of view they're one and the same?

[ippy]

Christ is the way to have the truth verified. If you have never tried it you cannot make that statement.

Yet again Sass, how can you or anyone else possibly know; why can't you see that you would have to go back to the root of the things you believe in and be able to provide verifiable evidence for the very root of your belief first before you can make any declarations about them as facts, something you have never done, all you do is keep on making assertions?

ippy

[wigginhall]

'Take no thought for the morrow' or 'store up treasure in heaven'? Now those two ideas have scrambled a few heads. Maybe from the mystic's point of view they're one and the same?

I think so.  But for many Christians, this is a massive alteration to the teachings of Christ, who after all, at times, recommended adherence to Jewish law also. 

There are some New Age Christians who have these ideas, but I suppose they are marginal.   If you're going to go mystical, it's probably more exciting to investigate Buddhism, Sufism, advaita, etc.   I'm too old and tired now, it's quite nice to listen to the cricket, without worrying about who I am.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs et al,

First, thanks to the last few posters here - enjoyable reading from all. As for:

I think you are right that there is nothing left to believe in, but on the other hand, there are many symbols for this emptiness/fullness, or whatever you call it.  I don't know whether this is atheism or not.   In Zen, they say that hell isn't punishment, but just training!  I like it.

Well, my atheism at least is bewilderment at the loopiness of the claims of most theists here and at the awfulness of the arguments they attempt to validate those claims. The emptiness/fullness idea is more nuanced though (Sam Harris essays similar territory) where I struggle more just to understand what it's supposed to mean. Call me a feet of clay materialist, but I'm quite relaxed at the idea of letterbox reality - we shape the world according to our ability to perceive it whereas, if our eyes could see like scanning electron microscopes, then it would appear to be entirely different, and maybe our parochial sense of separateness would disappear. If "we" are just clumps of consciousness emerging from but inextricably bound to a universal field of matter and forces then fine and dandy by me. 

Whence though the mystical stuff rather than just the recognition that's it's all more nuanced than we know or, possibly, can know? Why in other words presume the non-material?

[jjohnjil]

Gonners

Aren't you just a little bothered by the clear discrepancy of Jesus being portrayed as an apocalyptic prophet with an essentially Jewish message, and other areas where he is described as having a message for the whole world? (I reject the latter texts as add-ons, however noble they may sound)
What I get from Jesus is an example of courage, from someone who had a message of non-violence and forgiveness. These things are all wholesome, whatever else one might think about him. But I'd hardly call it 'firm ground', if you're after immutable, divine truth.

I don't think Gonners bothers himself about the biblical Jesus in that sort of detail, to him the symbolic Jesus preaches all that's good and how we should behave towards one another.  I like that kind of belief.   

[Gonnagle]

Dear JJ,

Symbolic Jesus, yes I like that, the essence of Jesus, cheers.

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

I do too john and, though I always want to know the Biblical Jesus, I believe Gonnagles' attitude is not only good but 100% acceptable - and should be acceptable to all Christians.  Rose said something earlier along the lines of us all needing/having to work out our own journey, which I thought was spot on.  Gonners is the sort of Christian who inspires others, would that there were more like him.  I expect he's blushing now so I'll shut up and talk about something else, haven't thought of what yet.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I do too john and, though I always want to know the Biblical Jesus, I believe Gonnagles' attitude is not only good but 100% acceptable - and should be acceptable to all Christians.  Rose said something earlier along the lines of us all needing/having to work out our own journey, which I thought was spot on.  Gonners is the sort of Christian who inspires others, would that there were more like him.  I expect he's blushing now so I'll shut up and talk about something else, haven't thought of what yet.

A shame your post is still suggestive of ''Good christian'' ''bad christian''.

I don't know what is meant by symbolic Jesus.....Does it mean he was neither real nor risen?

[Brownie]

You know what I mean Vlad.  Jesus is real but it is important to know and try to embody the essence of Jesus.  There are good and bad Christians in the sense that there are good and bad people, most are a mixture.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Vlad,

Aye!! That's right, wasn't real, wasn't Risen, some times old son you would drive a Saint to drink

Dear Brownie,

Cheers, but I am not all wonderful, right now I am skiving work and having a smoke, straight to hell for me.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Essence of Jesus - the new fragrance range by Nicky Gumbel.

[floo]

Essence of Jesus - the new fragrance range by Nicky Gumbel.

Blimey I bet that would stink. They didn't have showers and deodorants in those far off days, LOL!

[Bramble]

Dear Bramble,

I will try to clarify my position ( mine ).

My journey is on going, I once prayed to God, but I no longer do that, I pray to Our Lord Jesus, Our Lord gives me something tangible, the Cross gives me a symbol.

I can say positive things about God, for me, He/She/It is persistent, persistent in my life, but when it comes to Jesus I feel on firmer ground, I have the Gospels, Our Lords teachings his message, everytime I study the Gospels ( study, not just read ) my belief, my faith is reaffirmed.

Glad you asked, it was Karen Armstrong who put me on to "walk the walk first" God comes later, so if I see an atheist walking the walk I think, God can do the rest.

For me, God does not want all this worship nonsense, he wants his children to live in peace and harmony, when we do that, we then all truly worship God.

Does that help

Gonnagle.

Thanks for that. It turns out you were being too modest; you do know what you mean when you say God, at least to the extent that your God is some kind of being who wants peace and harmony. Perhaps as a Christian you took that for granted, although there are Christians who don't understand God in this way. Anyway, I know where you're coming from now 

[Rhiannon]

Blimey I bet that would stink. They didn't have showers and deodorants in those far off days, LOL!

I was thinking more of the cloying aroma of a man who thinks he exudes Jesus Christ.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Bramble,

Thanks for that. It turns out you were being too modest; you do know what you mean when you say God, at least to the extent that your God is some kind of being who wants peace and harmony. Perhaps as a Christian you took that for granted, although there are Christians who don't understand God in this way. Anyway, I know where you're coming from now 

You know where I am coming from, any chance you could explain it to me

Perhaps as a Christian you took that for granted

No it took me a long time to come to the concussion that I should stop fussing over God and ask, what is it for, what does God want from me and I will admit it was only after reading Karen Armstrong's " A History of the Bible " that I discovered that one simple little truth, God want us all to live in Peace and Harmony, he wants us to Love our Neighbour, feed the Poor, show real compassion, real empathy.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Dear Bramble,

You know where I am coming from, any chance you could explain it to me

No it took me a long time to come to the concussion that I should stop fussing over God and ask, what is it for, what does God want from me and I will admit it was only after reading Karen Armstrong's " A History of the Bible " that I discovered that one simple little truth, God want us all to live in Peace and Harmony, he wants us to Love our Neighbour, feed the Poor, show real compassion, real empathy.

Armstrong obviously hasn't read the Bible if she believes that to be the case. The deeds attributed to god aren't going to encourage peace and harmony.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

My first chuckle of the day, thank you

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

Armstrong obviously hasn't read the Bible if she believes that to be the case. The deeds attributed to god aren't going to encourage peace and harmony.

I'd have thought you would have read some of Karen Armstrong's books floo, they are extremely interesting.  She is somewhat controversial but there's no doubt she has not only read but studied the Bible extensively.  Not exclusively, she is a well rounded scholar.  Not everyone's cup of tea but I've enjoyed her writings and I think you would.

When I was talking about the essence of Jesus I wasn't meaning any physical essence, I'd have thought people would have realised that.  Wish I hadn't said it.

[floo]

I'd have thought you would have read some of Karen Armstrong's books floo, they are extremely interesting.  She is somewhat controversial but there's no doubt she has not only read but studied the Bible extensively.  Not exclusively, she is a well rounded scholar.  Not everyone's cup of tea but I've enjoyed her writings and I think you would.

When I was talking about the essence of Jesus I wasn't meaning any physical essence, I'd have thought people would have realised that.  Wish I hadn't said it.

I have read some of her writings and was not impressed at all.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Brownie,

When I was talking about the essence of Jesus I wasn't meaning any physical essence, I'd have thought people would have realised that.  Wish I hadn't said it.

I got it, but Floo and Rhiannons ramblings sent me off on a little, Perfume of religion thing, seems that some early Christians had a downer on the use of scent/perfume in religious worship, far to pagan for some

Gonnagle.

[Brownie]

Dear Brownie,

Cheers, but I am not all wonderful, right now I am skiving work and having a smoke, straight to hell for me.

Gonnagle.

Hee hee, I used to do that.  There was a ''smoking area'', people would congregate from all over the building.  A very friendly place and good for making contacts.

Floo, all a matter of taste when it comes to reading.

[SusanDoris]

I am about halfway through 'sapiens' by Yuval Noah Harari. I am not keen on the rather abrasive way it is written, but as he points out human civilisation, particularly in very large groups, adheres because of humanly created myths, and of what is an imagined order, and most definitely not because of
any god or something.

Gonnagle - I think it was you who recommended this a while ago?

[trippymonkey]

Dear Floo,

My first chuckle of the day, thank you

Gonnagle.

OH DEAR ?!!?? Yet ANOTHER here who cherrypicks & conveniently ignores all the 'bad bits' in the Bible !?!?! 

[BeRational]

Dear Bramble,

You know where I am coming from, any chance you could explain it to me

No it took me a long time to come to the concussion that I should stop fussing over God and ask, what is it for, what does God want from me and I will admit it was only after reading Karen Armstrong's " A History of the Bible " that I discovered that one simple little truth, God want us all to live in Peace and Harmony, he wants us to Love our Neighbour, feed the Poor, show real compassion, real empathy.

Gonnagle.

Having seen some of the bad bits that are morally terrible in the bible. How did you come to that conclusion.

Is keeping slaves showing real compassion?