Author Topic: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?  (Read 72135 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2016, 10:56:46 AM »
Committal to what?
An actual moral position.
Rather than commitment to one a moral relativist, at the end of the day, merely likes one, or one suits him/her or he or she appreciates it.

What therefore is the difference between morals and Marmite.

Rhiannon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2016, 10:59:29 AM »
An actual moral position on what?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #252 on: May 29, 2016, 11:10:16 AM »
An actual moral position on what?
On anything, anywhere at any time.

Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #253 on: May 29, 2016, 11:19:33 AM »
You may have noticed that I'm not Gonners, but I did used to be his side of the fence and his Christianity is that I relate to the most of the posters here.

The 'golden rule' was always what mattered most to me in terms of what I did and if you want to call it a 'requirement' then maybe it is. But salvation is what you feel you need. I stopped believing myself to be rotten with the son of Adam but more importantly I decided no just God would demand a blood price for my mistakes. I screw up, I pay, I make amends. If I can.

Nicely put - the idea of reciprocal kindness as espoused by the Golden Rule is surely the pinnacle of human ethics.

What can possibly be greater?
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Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #254 on: May 29, 2016, 11:31:37 AM »
An actual moral position.
Rather than commitment to one a moral relativist, at the end of the day, merely likes one, or one suits him/her or he or she appreciates it.

What therefore is the difference between morals and Marmite.

-sigh-

This has been gone through in detail before and you just ran away from all the difficult questions.

Morality is (obviously) more important than Marmite.

Whether or not you think morality is objective, we are stuck with the fact that there is no objective means of discovering what is actually morally right. Hence, all our moral decisions are subjective anyway.

You also seem to be flirting with an appeal to consequences fallacy.
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Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #255 on: May 29, 2016, 11:42:55 AM »
-sigh-

This has been gone through in detail before and you just ran away from all the difficult questions.

Morality is (obviously) more important than Marmite.

Whether or not you think morality is objective, we are stuck with the fact that there is no objective means of discovering what is actually morally right. Hence, all our moral decisions are subjective anyway.

You also seem to be flirting with an appeal to consequences fallacy.

That's about the size of it.

Right down to when someone attempts to demonstrate absolute morality by quoting something 'good' from their holey book........they are actually demonstrating subjective morality in that they ignore what they see as the 'bad stuff'.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #256 on: May 29, 2016, 12:03:23 PM »
-sigh-

This has been gone through in detail before and you just ran away from all the difficult questions.

Morality is (obviously) more important than Marmite.

Whether or not you think morality is objective, we are stuck with the fact that there is no objective means of discovering what is actually morally right. Hence, all our moral decisions are subjective anyway.

You also seem to be flirting with an appeal to consequences fallacy.
That's all very well Strange but removed from what being a moral relativist logically allows one to do or not do.

Gonnagle

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #257 on: May 29, 2016, 12:51:27 PM »
Dear Khatru,

Quote
Please bear with me, I'm way behind on this thread.

I was just wondering how you reconcile this with one of your earlier posts in which you stated that what the Bible god wants from us is to love our neighbour, live in peace and harmony and be compassionate and empathic.

All of the above is in keeping with the Golden Rule and can be achieved without being a Christian.

Are you saying that accepting Jesus is greater than the Golden Rule and therefore ranks higher in the Bible god's expectations for humanity?

I was talking about Christians and the fact that no two could ever agree on all the detail that make up a true Christian.

I don't think I would ever say "the Bible God" that says to me he/she/it is a Jewish or Christian God, God is everyone's God, I don't think God discriminates, in fact I don't think he favours anyone, we are all Gods children.

The Golden rule runs through nearly all religions, it is not confined to Our Lords teaching, and as I am constantly being told, Jesus was not the first to come up with this Commandment.

Quote
Are you saying that accepting Jesus is greater than the Golden Rule and therefore ranks higher in the Bible god's expectations for humanity?

To be honest I have never actually thought about it, I am not here to evangelise, not here to convert you to Christianity, if I have a mission, to simply put the thought of God in your mind, I will say if you accept Jesus into your life you better have a damned good think about the Golden Rule, this is how you worship God, so whatever your faith might be, or no faith, if you follow the Golden Rule you are worshipping God.

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Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #258 on: May 29, 2016, 01:15:37 PM »
That's all very well Strange but removed from what being a moral relativist logically allows one to do or not do.

No more so than believing in objective morality but being unable to objectively determine what it is.

In practical terms we are all faced with our own moral instincts and the rules of the society we live in. If one subscribes to the view that objective morality is prescribed by some god, then there is the additional problem of untangling all the subjective opinions about what exactly said god actually requires.

It's a subjective muddle either way.

Of course, if there were a god who actually wanted us to follow some moral code, one is forced to wonder why it is being so shy about setting it out in clear and unambiguous terms or, better still, providing an objective test for "morally good" that anybody could apply to any situation...
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #259 on: May 29, 2016, 04:39:40 PM »
Some,

Quote
No more so than believing in objective morality but being unable to objectively determine what it is.

In practical terms we are all faced with our own moral instincts and the rules of the society we live in. If one subscribes to the view that objective morality is prescribed by some god, then there is the additional problem of untangling all the subjective opinions about what exactly said god actually requires.

It's a subjective muddle either way.

Of course, if there were a god who actually wanted us to follow some moral code, one is forced to wonder why it is being so shy about setting it out in clear and unambiguous terms or, better still, providing an objective test for "morally good" that anybody could apply to any situation...

Quite so. The odd thing too for me is that those who assert objective morality but not, say, objective art appreciation have nothing but an argumentum ad consequentiamto support them: "I really, really don't like the idea that morality is a messy and imprecise mixture of intuition and reasoning so...um...it must be objective then!"

Where exactly this supposed objective morality would reside even if it did exist independent of anyone's thoughts on the matter is anyone's guess, but there it it is nonetheless. Possibly before your time here there was a poster (Alan/Alien) who gave ever more plaintive examples to do with torturing a child to death for fun that almost no-one would think to be morally good in the hope of somehow bridging the gap from a near-unanimous opinion on the matter to an objective truth. He never seemed even to comprehend the problem his approach gave him, but he clearly felt it must in some unexplained way be an objective truth despite that. Odd really.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 04:57:36 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #260 on: May 29, 2016, 05:09:03 PM »
Strange states that morality is more important than marmite but does not refute the moral relativists position of merely liking a moral position, or it suiting them or them just appreciating it.

There is no logical distinction therefore and no way of justifying a statement that morality is more important than ones position toward marmite.

Whatever one feels about objective morality attempts to make morality important in moral relativism is akin to turd polishing.

Practically how we behave morally is more akin to trying to get something right, trying to hit some mark.

Morality as liking is not an accurate description of what people are doing.
I'm afraid we all act like objective moralists......except of course psychos and socios.

Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #261 on: May 30, 2016, 08:55:44 AM »
There is no logical distinction therefore and no way of justifying a statement that morality is more important than ones position toward marmite.

Whatever one feels about objective morality attempts to make morality important in moral relativism is akin to turd polishing.

Drivel.

Whether people like Marmite or not has very little impact on other people's lives. Whether people find murdering, stealing and so on, acceptable or not has a very important impact on other people.

Practically how we behave morally is more akin to trying to get something right, trying to hit some mark.

Indeed; we (most people) have a sense of how we ought to behave - it's part of being human. We are social animals.

Morality as liking is not an accurate description of what people are doing.

No, but "morality as liking" is your description, not mine. I think it a significant part of human nature.

I note that, once again, you are studiously ignoring the difficulties with your own position on this. The belief that morality is objectively "out there" in some sense, is of no practical use if we can't access it in an objective way.

Neither have you addressed the point that no matter how desirable and useful you think objective morality would be, and how much you think subjective morality might be flawed, that doesn't constitute an argument that there is objective morality. Argumentum ad consequentiam remains a fallacy.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #262 on: May 30, 2016, 09:10:42 AM »
Drivel.

Whether people like Marmite or not has very little impact on other people's lives. Whether people find murdering, stealing and so on, acceptable or not has a very important impact on other people.

Indeed; we (most people) have a sense of how we ought to behave - it's part of being human. We are social animals.

No, but "morality as liking" is your description, not mine. I think it a significant part of human nature.

I note that, once again, you are studiously ignoring the difficulties with your own position on this. The belief that morality is objectively "out there" in some sense, is of no practical use if we can't access it in an objective way.

Neither have you addressed the point that no matter how desirable and useful you think objective morality would be, and how much you think subjective morality might be flawed, that doesn't constitute an argument that there is objective morality. Argumentum ad consequentiam remains a fallacy.
Moral relativism is ridden with all kinds of logical contradictions which you find acceptable here but wouldn't in other circumstances.

As Shania Twain would say.....that don't impress me much.

The best Hillside has is utter crap therefore.

We act as though morality is absolute.

Shaker

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #263 on: May 30, 2016, 09:17:56 AM »
... which doesn't of course mean that it actually is ::)
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Stranger

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #264 on: May 30, 2016, 09:24:28 AM »
Moral relativism is ridden with all kinds of logical contradictions which you find acceptable here but wouldn't in other circumstances.

As Shania Twain would say.....that don't impress me much.

So, still ignoring the problems with your own position and sticking to the argumentum ad consequentiam...

We act as though morality is absolute.

And...?
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Gordon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #265 on: May 30, 2016, 09:33:29 AM »

We act as though morality is absolute.
We may indeed, in terms of the practicalities of getting through the average day, but it only seems that way - it doesn't take much deep thinking to realise that moral positions, however static these seem to be at any point, can and do change at both personal and social levels over time and also in response to social changes or new knowledge.

There may well be moral axioms that operate as practical absolutes (such as those involving the welfare of children), but they seem rooted in ourselves and the characteristics of our species. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #266 on: May 30, 2016, 11:02:55 AM »
Some,

Quote
So, still ignoring the problems with your own position and sticking to the argumentum ad consequentiam...

...as a man clings to a concrete lifebelt. We don't even need to get to Trollboy's various straw man versions of what moral relativism entails. All he's saying is, "I really don't like that" in the hope that his personal dislike will somehow magic it into objective morality.

Quote
And...?

And...because we act as though morality is absolute (another straw man incidentally: almost no-one does that as it's almost always the case that counter-arguments can be put that throw a moral decision into doubt - the trolley car situation for example) then...well...um...you know....ooh look over there, a flying horse!...ta-daaaa!...it is objective then!

See? Job done!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 11:40:10 AM by bluehillside »
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Rhiannon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #267 on: May 30, 2016, 11:23:04 AM »
We may indeed, in terms of the practicalities of getting through the average day, but it only seems that way - it doesn't take much deep thinking to realise that moral positions, however static these seem to be at any point, can and do change at both personal and social levels over time and also in response to social changes or new knowledge.

There may well be moral axioms that operate as practical absolutes (such as those involving the welfare of children), but they seem rooted in ourselves and the characteristics of our species.

And even then people have decided that the moral thing is to exterminate the 'wrong' kind of children - after all they weren't spared the Holocaust or the Rwanda massacre.

Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #268 on: May 30, 2016, 12:45:03 PM »
Dear Khatru,

I was talking about Christians and the fact that no two could ever agree on all the detail that make up a true Christian.

That's for sure. Over the years the question of who is a true Christian has become so contested that believers have died in their thousands trying to answer it.

Strangely enough, rarely, if ever, will you hear an atheist or agnostic claim that another unbeliever is not a true atheist/agnostic.

I don't think I would ever say "the Bible God" that says to me he/she/it is a Jewish or Christian God, God is everyone's God, I don't think God discriminates, in fact I don't think he favours anyone, we are all Gods children.

Point taken, although I tend to use the term "Bible god" because it's the Bible that so many people claim is this particular deity's written/inspired word.  Personally, I see nothing transcendent about the Bible, nor indeed any of the other holy books supposedly authored/inspired by the supreme cosmic mega-being.

What's more, you can see that the various people who wrote the books of the Bible also saddled their god of choice with human weaknesses and vanities like capriciousness, jealousy, rage, etc.  You'd have thought the supreme cosmic creator being would be beyond such pettiness.

The Golden rule runs through nearly all religions, it is not confined to Our Lords teaching, and as I am constantly being told, Jesus was not the first to come up with this Commandment.

Yes, I'll continue to do that whenever I see someone crediting Jesus with this but not acknowledging that it originated in much earlier and quite different belief systems.

To be honest I have never actually thought about it, I am not here to evangelise, not here to convert you to Christianity, if I have a mission, to simply put the thought of God in your mind, I will say if you accept Jesus into your life you better have a damned good think about the Golden Rule, this is how you worship God, so whatever your faith might be, or no faith, if you follow the Golden Rule you are worshipping God.

Gonnagle.

I'm far from being a good example of how to live an ideal life but I'd say that in general terms I accord people the same respect I would expect to receive from them.  Perhaps that's close to accepting Jesus by default but without all the magic stuff.

It's noble that your god wants us to observe the Golden Rule but it's not hard to contrast those wishes when we read of the Yaweh's behaviour as recounted in the Bible.  In those pages there are examples of Yaweh instructing his followers to go out there and slaughter people in direct contravention of the Golden Rule. 

Still, I accept that the deity described in the OT is not the same entity as the god you worship.  Sadly, that is not the case for millions of believers who lap up every syllable in the Bible as being the divine and error free word of the supreme cosmic mega-being.
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Khatru

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #269 on: May 30, 2016, 12:51:32 PM »
And even then people have decided that the moral thing is to exterminate the 'wrong' kind of children - after all they weren't spared the Holocaust or the Rwanda massacre.

Whether it's Rwanda or the Holocaust we freely and readily condemn the slaughter of men, women and children.

Our willingness to condemn such behaviour also applies when the slaughter is at the hands of an atheist like Stalin or Pol Pot. 

Contrast that with believers like Sass and TW who refuse to condemn the slaughter (even of babies) when it's their deity of choice who's responsible.

Their particular brand of snake oil means they have to defend all sorts of reprehensible acts that any sane person would condemn without hesitation. 
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floo

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #270 on: May 30, 2016, 01:23:37 PM »
How those who believe the Bible to be literally true with all the ghastly deeds attributed to god, can still describe it as a 'god of love', goodness only knows.

trippymonkey

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #271 on: May 30, 2016, 01:26:16 PM »
YES YES YES !!!
Someone once mentioned that the 'Old Gods' were rarely as ruthless or nasty as this horrible creature is/was !!!!

floo

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #272 on: May 30, 2016, 01:30:21 PM »
YES YES YES !!!
Someone once mentioned that the 'Old Gods' were rarely as ruthless or nasty as this horrible creature is/was !!!!

They certainly couldn't be any worse.

Rhiannon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #273 on: May 30, 2016, 01:59:10 PM »
How those who believe the Bible to be literally true with all the ghastly deeds attributed to god, can still describe it as a 'god of love', goodness only knows.

It reflects their own nature, Floo. Those who tend to be nice people believe in a nice God.

Enki

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #274 on: May 30, 2016, 02:05:19 PM »
From Vlad's post 262:

Quote
We act as though morality is absolute.

David Bentley Hart, in his chapter 'Bliss' from his book "The Experience of God" says this.

“if we should conclude  that there is no such thing as real goodness, we can certainly cease to behave in a spirit of charity, or to feel any sense of moral responsibility towards others.” In other words, he is saying that if we really do not believe in  objective absolutes, which have their basis in a metaphysical objective reality, then we are incapable of  moral feelings, thoughts and actions.
However, so his argument goes, by the very fact that we perceive the good and the bad, and by trying to follow the good, we inevitably believe in moral absolutes which come from this objective morality. Having your cake and eating it come to my mind!

My answer to this would be as follows:

I function according to the way nature has made me.

So, even though I know that all atoms are virtually composed  of space,  when I sit down, I expect and feel  the material solidity of what I am sitting on. This is the way nature allows me to function in the natural world I inhabit.

Similarly,  I  suggest that everything I do and think is determined by cause and effect (leaving aside quantum mechanics, which may be responsible for a random element)) so that I cannot make total free will decisions. However, this does not stop me functioning in the natural world under what I consider to be the  illusion of free will,  because this is the way that nature intended me to act.  In essence, the fact that I live my life as if free will existed is not evidence that it actually does.

In exactly the same way, I can happily maintain no actual belief in an objective morality, but act quite naturally as if I did, because this is the way I  was made to function. This is my answer to  Hart’s  point that if we function as if morality has some objective reality, we must therefore, inescapably, believe that it has.  Like most other people, I make what I consider to be moral decisions all the time and yet I have no underlying belief that  morality is anything but a human concept conditional only on the fact that there are humans around to portray  and act upon such  attributes. The fact that I live my life as if some sort of morality actually existed is not evidence that it actually does.

I actually see morality as a human construct which attempts to deal with all manner of situations which have no intrinsic moral value in themselves. The morality we feel is  based upon the need for social cohesion, driven by the qualities of empathy, compassion and altruism and and fashioned by culture, nurture and rationality. I would suggest that my personal morals are a result of these, and capable of wide interpretation given any particular 'moral' situation. I may well be ‘wrong’ on any particular instance according to others who may take a contrary and opposing view. Indeed I may even change my moral stance if I am convinced that I should do so. I try to follow what I think is reasonable 'moral' behaviour according to the view of morality that I have described.

I would suggest, that this is the way evolution has made us in order to  maintain the viability of our species.  If drinking tea had any strong emotional overtones such that we felt our species threatened by those who do not drink tea, then, I suggest, drinking tea would then become a clear moral issue.

For myself,  ideally, when I say  something is wrong, my first reaction is of something which offends my nature. The wrongness I feel might take the form of disapproval, disgust, abhorrence, even fear, depending upon the situation. I then try to assess the wrongness of the situation according to my values,( which may well have their origin in my culture and my upbringing). in as rational a way as possible(e.g. by trying to ascertain as many facts regarding the situation as possible or by  trying to consider in as  level headed a way as possible  the points of view of others.)  The result of all this is something which I would call my moral opinion.
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