Author Topic: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?  (Read 70001 times)

BeRational

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #325 on: May 31, 2016, 11:52:18 AM »
No.....I've stated one that has the working out.

Are you saying it is not a moral truth? But merely a position that some people like?

Where is the working out, I missed that.

Can I use this working for any moral question to derive the objective moral value?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #326 on: May 31, 2016, 11:55:28 AM »
Some people do NOT consider it wrong.

How can you demonstrate that they are wrong and you are right, without using opinion?
Because they have a moral defect. As evidenced in their possible justifications. Either their justification for why it was good or their justification for why it was neither good nor bad.

Shaker

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #327 on: May 31, 2016, 11:55:42 AM »
Yes, apparently we all conclude that murder is wrong.
Apart from murderers, presumably.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #328 on: May 31, 2016, 11:56:45 AM »
Apart from murderers, presumably.
No they are morally defective.

BeRational

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #329 on: May 31, 2016, 11:58:33 AM »
No they are morally defective.

Is this because they do not share your opinion on some moral question?

Can we use your working out to demonstrate that homosexuality is either objectively right or wrong?
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #330 on: May 31, 2016, 12:17:04 PM »
Is this because they do not share your opinion on some moral question?

Can we use your working out to demonstrate that homosexuality is either objectively right or wrong?
I think your flippant use of the term working out as inappropriate here.
Just as any movement requires the brain and body to commit to numerous unconscious calculations for correctness so moral 'calculations'. However, to put it generally anything that is not used in or with love can be harmful. Does that answer your question?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 12:22:10 PM by Vlad and his ilk. »

Gordon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #331 on: May 31, 2016, 12:23:10 PM »
I think your flippant use of the term working out as inappropriate here.
Just as any movement requires the brain and body to commit to numerous unconscious calculations for correctness so moral 'calculations'. However, to put it generally anything that is not used in or with love can be harmful. Does that answer your question?

I think you'll need to unpack 'love' and 'harmful' if you are making an argument with these as premises to be applied to a situation. In addition, are these moral 'calculations' situation specific and independent of opinion? 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #332 on: May 31, 2016, 12:27:18 PM »
Is this because they do not share your opinion on some moral question?

If it is all just opinion how do right or wrong come into it since there cannot be any right or wrong.....merely opinion.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #333 on: May 31, 2016, 12:34:33 PM »
I think you'll need to unpack 'love' and 'harmful' if you are making an argument with these as premises to be applied to a situation. In addition, are these moral 'calculations' situation specific and independent of opinion?
But as I have said that is probably not possible considering even the calculations your cerebellum makes are unconscious and probably not matched by cerebral skill or ability.

We all need to unpack love and harmful.

The problem is all the moral relativist since the truth is there can be no actual arbitration on moral issues.

Gordon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #334 on: May 31, 2016, 12:44:22 PM »
But as I have said that is probably not possible considering even the calculations your cerebellum makes are unconscious and probably not matched by cerebral skill or ability.

We all need to unpack love and harmful.

The problem is all the moral relativist since the truth is there can be no actual arbitration on moral issues.

I suspect, Vlad, you are just making this up as you go along hence the attempt to evade.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #335 on: May 31, 2016, 12:53:41 PM »
The odd thing for me about the deep stupidity of the objective morality claim is that those who assert it really seem not to see the qualitative difference between it and values that actually are objectively the case. Ask enough people whether murder is wrong and eventually you'll find someone who says, "no, it's fine". That's his opinion and that's his morality.

Now try asking lots of people what'll happen if they jump out of a tenth storey window. Eventually you'll find someone who'll say, "I'll float gently to the ground" but you could test his claim readily enough and find it to be wrong.

What objective test would anyone propose I wonder for subjective opinions about morality?     

However much dust they throw to obscure it, that's still their central problem: bridging the gap from the subjective to the objective.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 01:19:16 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #336 on: May 31, 2016, 01:10:28 PM »
I suspect, Vlad, you are just making this up as you go along hence the attempt to evade.
Not at all If I was to ask him to perform the calculations for successfully putting one foot in front of another not even the great Hillside could perform such a feet.

BeRational

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #337 on: May 31, 2016, 01:11:58 PM »
If it is all just opinion how do right or wrong come into it since there cannot be any right or wrong.....merely opinion.

There can be consensus based on some moral premises. Like it's better to be alive than dead, painfree rather than in pain.

Using these simple guides, I can conclude that it's bad to drink battery acid.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #338 on: May 31, 2016, 01:12:16 PM »
The odd thing for me about the deep stupidity of the objective morality claim is that those who assert it really seem not to see the qualitative difference between it and values that actually are objectively the case. Ask enough people whether murder is wrong and eventually you'll find someone who says, "no, it's fine". That's his opinion and that's his morality.

Now try asking lots of people what'll happen if they jump out of a tenth storey window. Eventually you'll find someone who'll say, "I'll float gently to the ground" but you could test his claim readily enough and find it to be wrong.

What objective test would anyone propose I wonder for subjective opinions about morality?     

However much dust they throw to confuse obscure it, that's still their problem: bridging the gap from the subjective to the objective.
Introduction is merely starting with a conclusion.

The rest is irrelevant.

BeRational

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #339 on: May 31, 2016, 01:16:45 PM »
Vlad,

So, is homosexuality objectively morally right or wrong?

Can you show your workings out as well as the answer.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #340 on: May 31, 2016, 01:18:56 PM »
No they are morally defective.
Do they think so?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #341 on: May 31, 2016, 01:20:03 PM »
No they are morally defective.

But Hope thinks homosexuals who have sex are morally defective.

Is he wrong? If so how come you are right?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #342 on: May 31, 2016, 01:23:37 PM »
Vlad,

So, is homosexuality objectively morally right or wrong?

Can you show your workings out as well as the answer.
well let's start with yours shall we. This is purely a matter of opinion. So ultimately it is not right....nor is it wrong.......and that is true for murder................ for you.

Now comes my turn.................  anything not done in love is potentially harmful. There is no love in murder.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #343 on: May 31, 2016, 01:26:17 PM »
Shakes,

Quote
Do they think so?

No. Trollboy is merely using his subjective opinion on the matter to critique the subjective opinion of someone who doesn't agree with him. Why he thinks his subjective opinion is also objectively correct is anyone's guess, but a subjective opinion it remains nonetheless.

Of course if he or any other operator of the objective morality assertotron could ever suggest a method to test the objectivity of his claim - as we would for, say, the chap who thinks he can defy gravity - then he'd finally have an argument worth considering. I wouldn't hold your breath on that one though.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

BeRational

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #344 on: May 31, 2016, 01:26:20 PM »
well let's start with yours shall we. This is purely a matter of opinion. So ultimately it is not right....nor is it wrong.......and that is true for murder................ for you.

Now comes my turn.................  anything not done in love is potentially harmful. There is no love in murder.

Define love.
Is it okay to kill someone in pain that you love?

Is homosexuality morally correct?

So, in your opinion if I do something out of love, then it's ok?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #345 on: May 31, 2016, 01:36:06 PM »
But Hope thinks homosexuals who have sex are morally defective.

Is he wrong? If so how come you are right?
As a Christian I think all are fallen short. As an antichristian you think only Christians have fallen short. How therefore is your position elevated above Hope's?

Shaker

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #346 on: May 31, 2016, 01:38:35 PM »
As a Christian I think all are fallen short. As an antichristian you think only Christians have fallen short. How therefore is your position elevated above Hope's?
Construct a scenario of people's lives comparing (a) what would happen if Rhiannon was in charge and (b) if Hope was in charge, and see how that stacks up.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #347 on: May 31, 2016, 01:40:45 PM »
As a Christian I think all are fallen short. As an antichristian you think only Christians have fallen short. How therefore is your position elevated above Hope's?

And you know I think like this how?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #348 on: May 31, 2016, 01:42:11 PM »
Define love.
Working on it. You will receive my comprehensive reply in about six years.....and no I won't do a Hillside or a Dawkins's and start with the conclusion.

floo

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Re: My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?
« Reply #349 on: May 31, 2016, 01:42:24 PM »
As a Christian I think all are fallen short. As an antichristian you think only Christians have fallen short. How therefore is your position elevated above Hope's?

I don't think Rhi is an anti-Christian her posts certainly don't give that impression.

No one is perfect, we all screw up from time to time.