Author Topic: Religion Has No Value - Facebook  (Read 6315 times)

Shaker

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2016, 05:59:29 PM »
Clearly, you are short on logic yourself
When bereft of argument, break glass and reach for the tu quoque.

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so until you show that you've overcome that shortcoming, I won't be taking any lessons in logic from you.
You've more than amply demonstrated in your time here that you are constitutionally incapable of taking lessons from anyone on anything, because you are unable to take on board and process any new information that conflicts with your Christian mindset programming. The most obvious example of this is the number of times that you've been told that you are deploying a logical fallacy - typically of the negative proof variety, though many of the other main ones get a workout at some point - with carefully and clearly explained reasons, only for you to crash on regardless, still deploying the same aberrant reasoning processes as ever, as though nothing had ever happened.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 08:28:41 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2016, 06:03:47 PM »
You seem to be suffering from the 'fallacy' of disagreeing with me (and other posters) only then to restate what we have said, but using different vocabulary.
I have no idea what the scare quotes are for - a recognition on your part that you're using the word illegitimately, perhaps. It's not a fallacy to point out that somebody is employing a fallacy when they are actually doing so. Restatement comes when somebody is either unwilling or simply unable to grasp something the first time round - like you with fallacious reasoning. If you can't, or won't, grasp something once, whatever the reason for that may be, it's worth the effort of saying precisely the same thing albeit in different terms in case that catches hold where the first explication didn't.

Alas, past that point there seems little point in continuing.
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The problem, as I've pointed out to SKoS, is that you and others seem very keen to limit the scope of logic to what you feel comfortable with.
No, it has zero to do with comfort. The real problem is that you are either too blinkered/arrogant to recognise that there are certain rules of logic that you routinely flout because the pointing out of these rules demonstrates that you are in the wrong, or just plain old too stupid to grasp said rules when they are brought to your attention. It's either arrogant, pompous I'm-right-and-the-rules-of-logic-are-wrong-ery, or it's simple stupidity. If there is another option or there are other options, I'm yet to see it or them. Every time you wheel out the "There is no evidence that there isn't ... " or "Where is your evidence that it didn't ..." or something similarly worded - that's the most common logical fallacy that you habitually employ, of course, though not the only one - you demonstrate an elementary failure of logic. Many different posters here have pointed this out to you many, many different times over an extended period of time; this makes absolutely no difference to you whatever, and you continue to make the same basic errors in reasoning. I can't currently call to mind the exact word-for-word quote but Churchill supposedly once said that men occasionally stumble across the truth, but most pick themselves up and carry on as though nothing had happened. That's a perfect capsule summary of your approach to correction from people who understand logic; it never happened - blunder on regardless.

As far as I can see, there are only two reasons for that state of affairs. There's the disagreeable mix of arrogance and wounded pride - nobody particularly likes being told: "Actually you're wrong, and this is the reason/here are the reasons why you're wrong ..." - or dumb incomprehension.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 08:27:44 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2016, 06:42:49 PM »
For instance (and I've used this example before), I've often challenged people to explain 'love', and the most common response is that it has to do with chemical reactions in the brain.  Logically, that doesn't make sense, because chemical reactions don't 'just' happen - there has to be some sort of catalyst or action that initiates the reaction: in other words, the chemical reactions in the brain are symptoms or markers of something else.  To extend the example, love isn't a drippy, soft, fuzzy emotion as many like to believe it is:  it can be soft and tender, but equally it can be hard and painful.

I think the problem with some here is they believe that logic is limited to physical, naturalistic concepts and therefore formulaic in a scientific way.  I happen to believe that logic reaches beyond this blinkered understanding.  For instance (and I've used this example before), I've often challenged people to explain 'love', and the most common response is that it has to do with chemical reactions in the brain.  Logically, that doesn't make sense, because chemical reactions don't 'just' happen - there has to be some sort of catalyst or action that initiates the reaction: in other words, the chemical reactions in the brain are symptoms or markers of something else. 

And your evidence for this is what exactly?

Why doesn't it make sense?

Emotions (including love) can clearly be manipulated by changing the physiology of the brain. I mean this is basic stuff, drink a bottle of Vodka, take LSD and your emotions will change.

Chemical reaction do "just happen". The direction of reaction is determined by the Gibbs' free energy change, which is the arbiter of enthalpic and entropic components.

You are way out of your depth here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_free_energy




Shaker

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2016, 06:53:17 PM »
Emotions (including love) can clearly be manipulated by changing the physiology of the brain. I mean this is basic stuff, drink a bottle of Vodka, take LSD and your emotions will change.
I used to read the Richard Gordon books when I was much much younger: he also said that changing somebody's emotional state is trivially easy - have a couple of room-temperature drinks on an empty stomach. Bingo bongo, emotional state changed.

I would love to hear an explanation of this from the supernaturalists.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2016, 06:59:19 PM »
I think the problem with some here is they believe that logic is limited to physical, naturalistic concepts and therefore formulaic in a scientific way.  I happen to believe that logic reaches beyond this blinkered understanding.

Bully for you - so what do academic logicians working in, say, University departments think about your beliefs on the scope of formal logic.

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For instance (and I've used this example before), I've often challenged people to explain 'love', and the most common response is that it has to do with chemical reactions in the brain.

All our subjective feelings and emotions are brain-bound though, unless you can demonstrate differently - assuming you can't, which seems like a safe bet, then you are just expressing either your reluctance to accept reasonable points which don't accord with your preferred perspective or your inability to understand well-established knowledge regarding our biology.

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Logically, that doesn't make sense, because chemical reactions don't 'just' happen - there has to be some sort of catalyst or action that initiates the reaction: in other words, the chemical reactions in the brain are symptoms or markers of something else.  To extend the example, love isn't a drippy, soft, fuzzy emotion as many like to believe it is:  it can be soft and tender, but equally it can be hard and painful.

This is a fallacious argument from personal incredulity, and as such has no merit.
 
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Clearly, you are short on logic yourself, so until you show that you've overcome that shortcoming, I won't be taking any lessons in logic from you.

You certainly need logic lessons from someone - a good place to start would be how to avoid repeatedly falling into fallacies.

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2016, 07:04:33 PM »
I used to read the Richard Gordon books when I was much much younger: he also said that changing somebody's emotional state is trivially easy - have a couple of room-temperature drinks on an empty stomach. Bingo bongo, emotional state changed.


I would love to hear an explanation of this from the supernaturalists.


Hope you don't mind me emphasising this. I did it out of love.

Stranger

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2016, 07:10:01 PM »
I think the problem with some here is they believe that logic is limited to physical, naturalistic concepts and therefore formulaic in a scientific way.

Ah, that's your problem! You don't understand what logic is.

Logic is not dependant on what you use it for. Science uses logic - there is no scientific (or naturalistic, or physical) logic - just logic.

Logical fallacies are fallacies no matter what the subject matter. It is just about the form of the argument.

For example, the negative proof fallacy is a fallacy whether it's applied, science, religion, whether it's raining, if there is a largest prime number, or if there is a teapot orbiting Mars - to anything at all that can be true or false.

I happen to believe that logic reaches beyond this blinkered understanding.  For instance (and I've used this example before), I've often challenged people to explain 'love', and the most common response is that it has to do with chemical reactions in the brain.  Logically, that doesn't make sense, because chemical reactions don't 'just' happen - there has to be some sort of catalyst or action that initiates the reaction: in other words, the chemical reactions in the brain are symptoms or markers of something else.  To extend the example, love isn't a drippy, soft, fuzzy emotion as many like to believe it is:  it can be soft and tender, but equally it can be hard and painful.

This is a digression that again illustrates your ignorance of the term. The only obvious connection to logic is that it appears to contain an argument from incredulity fallacy.

Clearly, you are short on logic yourself, so until you show that you've overcome that shortcoming, I won't be taking any lessons in logic from you.

I suggest you start by learning what the term means.
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Shaker

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2016, 08:10:19 PM »
You certainly need logic lessons from someone - a good place to start would be how to avoid repeatedly falling into fallacies.
I admire your boundless optimism, but on past showing what on earth leads you to think that this would do any good in any way whatsoever?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2016, 08:29:22 PM »
I admire your boundless optimism, but on past showing what on earth leads you to think that this would do any good in any way whatsoever?

It is just my optimism I fear.

I suspect Hope's rose-tinted theoglasses (and it seems that some of his fellow Christians have also acquired these items) are permanently welded on - just as polaroid sunglasses prevent glare these theoglasses prevent the intrusion of reason and logic while allowing the flow of fallacies in the opposite direction.

Thankfully, here in the UK at least, the demand for these items is progressively reducing and stocks may well be running low (but meantime they are still on offer at branches of 'Soulsavers'). 

Hope

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2016, 08:35:48 PM »
I suspect Hope's rose-tinted theoglasses (and it seems that some of his fellow Christians have also acquired these items) are permanently welded on - just as polaroid sunglasses prevent glare these theoglasses prevent the intrusion of reason and logic while allowing the flow of fallacies in the opposite direction.
Tinted glasses, yes.  But photo-chromatic, rather than rose-tinted. 

In fact, I believe that I have suggested in the past that the rose-tintedness is more on your and your fellow-travellers' side.

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Thankfully, here in the UK at least, the demand for these items is progressively reducing and stocks may well be running low (but meantime they are still on offer at branches of 'Soulsavers').
I haven't noticed that the demand is progressively reducing, Gordon.  The number of atheists and antitheists on this board seem to be racking the demand steadily upwards.
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Gordon

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2016, 08:42:27 PM »
Tinted glasses, yes.  But photo-chromatic, rather than rose-tinted. 

In fact, I believe that I have suggested in the past that the rose-tintedness is more on your and your fellow-travellers' side.

So you have, but sadly your attempts are so mired in various fallacies (which have been pointed out to you repeatedly) that they don't get off the ground.

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I haven't noticed that the demand is progressively reducing, Gordon.

So here in the UK Christianity is thriving is it - that isn't borne out by evidence, where in the bit of the UK where I am religious affiliation is in decline.

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The number of atheists and antitheists on this board seem to be racking the demand steadily upwards.

Really - by what mechanism are we doing this?

Shaker

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2016, 08:43:18 PM »
In fact, I believe that I have suggested in the past that the rose-tintedness is more on your and your fellow-travellers' side.
Well, you can 'suggest' any old twaddle can't you? And do.
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I haven't noticed that the demand is progressively reducing, Gordon.
Again we're faced with a simple binary; either you're unacquainted with the contrary evidence, or don't want to take it on board.

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The number of atheists and antitheists
Uh oh; I smell the dead hand of Vlad ...
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on this board seem to be racking the demand steadily upwards.
Evidence of this?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Stranger

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2016, 03:47:13 PM »
I won't be taking any lessons in logic from you.

Well, you are clearly in need of lessons from somebody. You obviously don't believe people on this forum, so why not take a look at this introduction (it even has exercises to try, with answers, so you can check your understanding)?

http://www.utm.edu/staff/jfieser/class/120/9-logic.htm
x(∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y(yxy ∪ {y} ∈ x))

Bubbles

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2016, 06:03:32 PM »
https://www.facebook.com/theirisnogod/

Has anyone else here seen this facebook page ???

VERY interesting but BEWARE all religionists - it MAY cause you to think although we ALL know at least 2 on here that gave THAT up longggg ago !?!??!  ;) ;) ::) ::) ::) ;D

Nick


What I thought of the little image of the pig and Muslim was unrepeatable.

It's gross and a reflection of the moron who created it.

That's what it makes me think.  >:(.

It certainly won't cause me to reflect on religion in a negative way.

Just a loss of respect for people that create such garbage.

There isn't much on there to make someone think, it's full of rubbish!

 >:(

« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 06:06:39 PM by Rose »

Sassy

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2016, 11:26:17 AM »
https://www.facebook.com/theirisnogod/

Has anyone else here seen this facebook page ???

VERY interesting but BEWARE all religionists - it MAY cause you to think although we ALL know at least 2 on here that gave THAT up longggg ago !?!??!  ;) ;) ::) ::) ::) ;D

Nick

Nick, are you sober yet?

Had to laugh that anyone would want to be associated with such a page.
Attention seeking at it's worst and yet definitely at it's attention grabbing best.

Do we really need all that stupid insults and sexual provocation against Islam or any religion.
If being an atheist made something like that acceptable then perhaps the thinking person is slowly and sadly in decline.


That was a No. No. even for you. Hope you are not a member of that particular group.

Now we all have to wash our eyes and minds to forget the sight of the humping going on there...

Tell me... did it actually give anyone the hump it is too ridiculous to be angry about. It is a joke.

 :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2016, 11:26:53 AM »
No - I always sit like this ?!!??! LOL

More the way you 'tell em'.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2016, 11:28:44 AM »
If the creator of this page can't even spell their subtitle correctly, is it worthy of being taken seriously?   ;)

Aaaargh,

You actually gave this the time of day... I cannot believe anyone really feels it worthy of debate...

Spelling  correctly or not... ;D

I see Nicks humour is rocking... ;D
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

trippymonkey

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Re: Religion Has No Value - Facebook
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2016, 01:32:12 PM »
AI thank you all !!!

Leaves stage left !!