Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...

[BeRational]

Dear Brownie,

No don't shut up, this is something Berational does not take on board, faith evolves, he says it is about personal interpretation, well hell yes!! as we gain new insights, new life experiences, we might look at the Bible in a new light, we grow, we learn, but me and Berational have been down this road umpteen times, he see's the world through atheist eyes, I see it through Christian eyes, correction, I see it through cherry picking Christian eyes, he does not cherry pick but if I had a quid for everytime he mentioned slavery I would have enough for a weekend in Blackpool.

Gonnagle.

I do but that does NOT count as cherry picking as I do not claim that everything in the bible is from an all loving God.
Those that claim it is, need to have the problem bits pointed out.

I think you believe God can be found in the bible but you DO cherry pick as you select only the good bits that chime with YOUR interpretation of God.

I am happy to take the whole bible warts and all and see quite clearly it was written by people of the time. This is why slavery and mass killing is in because it would seem fine to them.

What spin do you put on slavery in the bible?

[Sassy]

How anyone can condone the action of Abraham is beyond me. I have heard it argued Abraham knew god would call a halt at the last minute! What about Isaac in all this, he must have been scared witless? How could anyone have a good relationship with a parent who was prepared to use them as a human sacrifice?

You are so out of touch that you have no idea that the children of God, trust their maker.

Abraham, knew God had promised the covenant promise through Issac.
He had faith that even if Isaac died that somehow God could raise him from the dead and do all he had promised.
But more than anything Abraham loved God not just because of the promise but because God was who he said he was.

God had never intended for Abrahams son to die and even provided a sacrifice. It also taught a lesson that human sacrifice
was not something God wanted. Abraham never sacrificed his servants or people to God.
Abraham so loved God he was willing to sacrifice his own son. Which showed he genuinely had a relationship with Gd.
God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life.
Not sacrificed as a an animal or ritually, Christ paid the price that sinners paid for punishment according to the Law.

We see the person who wrongly promises to sacrifice the first thing to greet him for winning in battle is the mans only daughter.
The man should not have promised God something God does not want. Human sacrifices are an abomination to him.
But his daughter upon hearing willingly gives her life to keep her Fathers promise.

Her life was not his to give. She willingly gave it up.  It showed two things... Genuine faith and belief in God and how we should not to others what we do not want done to us. God just wants thanks and that is the sacrifice acceptable to him to do the right thing.

We see that Abrahams trust was being tested and his love of God.
He loved God so much he would not hold his son back. But we see God did not want him to sacrifice his son and never intended him to sacrifice his son. The LORD God provided an alternative sacrifice.
It was clear at the very beginning that God does not want and never has wanted human Sacrifices.
He just wants us to love him and clearly that love would not include human sacrifice.
He also wanted us to love others. It is a clear message.

[floo]

You are so out of touch that you have no idea that the children of God, trust their maker.

Abraham, knew God had promised the covenant promise through Issac.
He had faith that even if Isaac died that somehow God could raise him from the dead and do all he had promised.
But more than anything Abraham loved God not just because of the promise but because God was who he said he was.

God had never intended for Abrahams son to die and even provided a sacrifice. It also taught a lesson that human sacrifice
was not something God wanted. Abraham never sacrificed his servants or people to God.
Abraham so loved God he was willing to sacrifice his own son. Which showed he genuinely had a relationship with Gd.
God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have eternal life.
Not sacrificed as a an animal or ritually, Christ paid the price that sinners paid for punishment according to the Law.

We see the person who wrongly promises to sacrifice the first thing to greet him for winning in battle is the mans only daughter.
The man should not have promised God something God does not want. Human sacrifices are an abomination to him.
But his daughter upon hearing willingly gives her life to keep her Fathers promise.

Her life was not his to give. She willingly gave it up.  It showed two things... Genuine faith and belief in God and how we should not to others what we do not want done to us. God just wants thanks and that is the sacrifice acceptable to him to do the right thing.

We see that Abrahams trust was being tested and his love of God.
He loved God so much he would not hold his son back. But we see God did not want him to sacrifice his son and never intended him to sacrifice his son. The LORD God provided an alternative sacrifice.
It was clear at the very beginning that God does not want and never has wanted human Sacrifices.
He just wants us to love him and clearly that love would not include human sacrifice.
He also wanted us to love others. It is a clear message.

So if god asked you to sacrifice one of your children, you would obey trusting it to know best? 

[Sassy]

Dearie Me,

Abraham and Issac, it's a bloody Myth, a story with a truth in it, you don't sacrifice children, maybe a small god would ask you to sacrifice a child, but God would not, why would a God who can look into your very heart need to test you, bloody stupid, get over it Christians there are a lot of Myths in your Bible.

Gonnagle.

Abraham is not a myth....


King James Bible
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Unless you are now calling the Son of God a liar?

You have done enough harm with your constant belittling and excuses before the men who disbelieve and insult our LORD God.
All because of your own pride. Yep! you actually believe you know better than God or Moses who wrote the truth about Abraham. Do you really believe you know better than God, Moses and Jesus Christ?

Be Still and know that God he is God. Know also that no lie ever came from God and Abraham is not a myth but a reality.

Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Moses knew God and the Messiah would be like Moses and God would put his words into his mouth.
" My words are Spirit and they are life!
God,Moses and Jesus declared Abraham to be real. Who are you to call them liars?
In reality it is has now been made clear to you. Do you still persist in calling Abraham a myth and so calling everything that comes after a lie?
THINK.... You do yourself an injustice and your faith. The truth is the truth... God is not a liar.

[Sassy]

so when you do not like the message, just say myth. If you happen to like the message, then it's the word of god.

Very slippery.

I bet the flood was a myth and no one died? (well I know it is really a myth, but some Christians think it really happened)

Some people actually know God so know why it is not a myth. You know nothing so cannot believe anything but yourself.

[floo]

Jesus being a mere human, had no more idea of the 'truth' than you, Sass!

[Sassy]

Not many of them go the full porker and say the same of the resurrection, though 

The resurrection of Christ can be proved. If you obey his words you will know if what he says is true.
Try it. But the truth is the failing is on your own part. You won't try it.

[floo]

The resurrection of Christ can be proved. If you obey his words you will know if what he says is true.
Try it. But the truth is the failing is on your own part. You won't try it.

Of course it can't be proved, you have NO evidence for that daft assertion!

[Shaker]

The resurrection of Christ can be proved.

Go ahead.

If you obey his words you will know if what he says is true.

Bullshit. This doesn't prove - your word - the alleged resurrection of a man two thousand years ago.

Try it. But the truth is the failing is on your own part. You won't try it.

There's nothing to try.

[Sassy]

Those questions do not ensure everyone will come the same conclusion.

Is god a myth?

Your questions confirm what I said. If YOU like it you might say it is the word of god, if you don't it's myth.

This is cherry picking.

The words of the OT are the Holy Scriptures that Christ and the disciples knew and referred to.
They are not myths and do not need to be.
Because you don't know God and because you have no faith, it matters not. The truth won't change.
Gods words are true and you have been given the way in the OT and NT to find out if true.
The truth is you have no interest as to if really the truth.

[floo]

The words of the OT are the Holy Scriptures that Christ and the disciples knew and referred to.
They are not myths and do not need to be.
Because you don't know God and because you have no faith, it matters not. The truth won't change.
Gods words are true and you have been given the way in the OT and NT to find out if true.
The truth is you have no interest as to if really the truth.

More assertions no evidence!

[BeRational]

The words of the OT are the Holy Scriptures that Christ and the disciples knew and referred to.
They are not myths and do not need to be.
Because you don't know God and because you have no faith, it matters not. The truth won't change.
Gods words are true and you have been given the way in the OT and NT to find out if true.
The truth is you have no interest as to if really the truth.

So you think ALL the stuff in the OT came from an all loving god?

If so, why does your god condone slavery, and mass murder?

Do you condone slavery and mass murder?

[Sassy]

So if god asked you to sacrifice one of your children, you would obey trusting it to know best?

That is what you never learn... God would NEVER ask us to sacrifice our children.
We see that clearly from the events of Abraham and his teachings in the OT.

31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

God made it clear that human sacrifices are not the way of God.
So we know if asked it would not be God.
Just as when Christ was tested...
He never put God to the test. He knew the bible and he knew what was written was true,
But he did not need to test God to know God would do it. He answered according to the scriptures.

If you be the Son of God,

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Jesus never sought to prove himself... He said "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
He did not need to prove to anyone he was the Son of God. He is the Son of God.

God made it clear at the very beginning he would not allow the children to be sacrificed and made it clear thoughout.
He hated human sacrifices.

With Christ it was different we were about to die a death both spiritually and physically because of the Sin of Adam.
God allowed Christ to offer himself freely the sinless for the sinner to save us.
No greater love is there than to lie down your life for another. Totally different isn't it than murdering your child for an act of worship to an idol/pagan god.

[Sassy]

Go ahead.Bullshit. This doesn't prove - your word - the alleged resurrection of a man two thousand years ago.There's nothing to try.

When you have obeyed Christs words come back and let us know....


You are a coward you only have to obey Christs words so clearly you really are denial. You have his words in the NT and the Word of God in the OT. Do as they say and then tell us it isn't true. Till you do your words mean absolutely nothing you cannot speak out against them unless you have tried the way they have given. Go on try it...









You won't because you have no intention of knowing or wanting to know if what you say can be proved wrong by obeying Christ. You are not truthful to yourself.

[Sassy]

So you think ALL the stuff in the OT came from an all loving god?

If so, why does your god condone slavery, and mass murder?

Do you condone slavery and mass murder?

Read the bible.
It will stop you make inexcusable mistakes in your thinking and so writing.

[Shaker]

You are a coward you only have to obey Christs words so clearly you really are denial. You have his words in the NT and the Word of God in the OT. Do as they say and then tell us it isn't true.

Plenty have done exactly that, including several members here.

Needless to say, your only "response" to this (to you) inconvenient and uncomfortable fact is to wheel out a witless No True Scotsman fallacy.

[BeRational]

Read the bible.
It will stop you make inexcusable mistakes in your thinking and so writing.

Read it. I condones slavery.

Have you read it?

Do you condone slavery?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

What spin!! First you accuse me of cherry picking and now, acting like a politician, nice.

I don't put any spin on slavery in the Bible, slavery was going on long before the Bible was even written, what the Bible did say regarding keeping slaves for the people of that time at that moment ( who, why, where, what, when, how ) there was rules, if you kept slaves you had to abide by the rules, slavery is man made, not God made.

I think you believe God can be found in the bible but you DO cherry pick as you select only the good bits that chime with YOUR interpretation of God.

I do think God can be found in the Bible, as in any great work of art, God is the best in us trying to speak out, you will find God in any great piece of literature, if those words make you stop and think, if they take you out of yourself, if they touch you at a level that makes you think about your own humanity, that's God talking, the writer has been touched by the divine and you in turn when you read it are also touched by that same divinity, all the great writers of history, Shakespeare ( although I don't get the guy ) Wordsworth, Milton, Blake and for me personally, Pratchett and Kipling.

You can call it cherry picking but for me the parts of the Bible which talk about God massacring thousands or sending plaque's, I have to stop and think why ( who, what, when, why, where, how ) and it usually takes me back to the writer or I search for a deeper meaning, that is the purpose of the Bible, to make you think, to use your God given intelligence.

I am happy to take the whole bible warts and all and see quite clearly it was written by people of the time. This is why slavery and mass killing is in because it would seem fine to them.

Once again we agree but the Bible has a message for all humanity, you just have to search.

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Ooops, and as I write this our Sass says good morning, morning Sass I hope you have a lovely day.

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,

What spin!! First you accuse me of cherry picking and now, acting like a politician, nice.

I don't put any spin on slavery in the Bible, slavery was going on long before the Bible was even written, what the Bible did say regarding keeping slaves for the people of that time at that moment ( who, why, where, what, when, how ) there was rules, if you kept slaves you had to abide by the rules, slavery is man made, not God made.

I do think God can be found in the Bible, as in any great work of art, God is the best in us trying to speak out, you will find God in any great piece of literature, if those words make you stop and think, if they take you out of yourself, if they touch you at a level that makes you think about your own humanity, that's God talking, the writer has been touched by the divine and you in turn when you read it are also touched by that same divinity, all the great writers of history, Shakespeare ( although I don't get the guy ) Wordsworth, Milton, Blake and for me personally, Pratchett and Kipling.

You can call it cherry picking but for me the parts of the Bible which talk about God massacring thousands or sending plaque's, I have to stop and think why ( who, what, when, why, where, how ) and it usually takes me back to the writer or I search for a deeper meaning, that is the purpose of the Bible, to make you think, to use your God given intelligence.

Once again we agree but the Bible has a message for all humanity, you just have to search.

Ooops, and as I write this our Sass says good morning, morning Sass I hope you have a lovely day.

Gonnagle.

So you think god saw the slavery that man had invented, and just proposed some rule?
That's your spin to make your god all loving?
Was murder and theft man made, as he sort of prohibited them in the commandments, but said nothing about not keeping slaves, just some rules.

Do you think we should still keep slaves, in accordance with your loving gods rules of course?

This is what I mean about spin. You know the bible condones slavery, you know slavery is wrong, you also know that your god must condone slavery with his rules, so you spin it to be not too bad.

Do you understand how this has warped your thinking.

I am sure YOU would condemn slavery, and would have written a commandment forbidding it, but your god did not do this.

How do you square an all loving god, with the keeping and owning of another human being?

[floo]

That is what you never learn... God would NEVER ask us to sacrifice our children.
We see that clearly from the events of Abraham and his teachings in the OT.

31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

God made it clear that human sacrifices are not the way of God.
So we know if asked it would not be God.
Just as when Christ was tested...
He never put God to the test. He knew the bible and he knew what was written was true,
But he did not need to test God to know God would do it. He answered according to the scriptures.

If you be the Son of God,

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Jesus never sought to prove himself... He said "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
He did not need to prove to anyone he was the Son of God. He is the Son of God.

God made it clear at the very beginning he would not allow the children to be sacrificed and made it clear thoughout.
He hated human sacrifices.

With Christ it was different we were about to die a death both spiritually and physically because of the Sin of Adam.
God allowed Christ to offer himself freely the sinless for the sinner to save us.
No greater love is there than to lie down your life for another. Totally different isn't it than murdering your child for an act of worship to an idol/pagan god.

But god apparently asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and Abraham was prepared to do so, what an evil creep he was if the story was true. He should have told god where to stick such an evil suggestion!

You read the Bible wearing rose coloured specs!

[Khatru]

if I had a quid for everytime he mentioned slavery I would have enough for a weekend in Blackpool.

Gonnagle.

Or a night out in and around the hostelries of Bridgeton listening to Matt McGinn impersonators.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Khatru,

Are you kiddin! the price of a pint in Brigton, I could be drunk as a skunk for months, and I don't think you get many Matt Mcginn impersonators in sunny Brigton, he doesn't sing the right songs or wrong songs depending on the colour of yer vest

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Gonners,

I don't put any spin on slavery in the Bible, slavery was going on long before the Bible was even written, what the Bible did say regarding keeping slaves for the people of that time at that moment ( who, why, where, what, when, how ) there was rules, if you kept slaves you had to abide by the rules, slavery is man made, not God made.

Isn't that a bit like dealing with child abuse by setting down rules for giving them a sweet afterwards? Why wouldn't a morally good God have said instead "slavery is wrong" - maybe by junking the petty jealousy commandment about worshipping false gods and putting it in there instead? Seems like an odd sense of priorities otherwise.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Oh for the Love of...................! I know where you and Berational are coming from, simple fact is God said nothing about keeping slaves, slavery is man made, but then you ask, why did God not step in!! he has ( he for a given he ) but we don't listen, it is all there but we keep on with our greed, pride, ego, but one day we all will have to listen, it is all over this forum, from atheists, Muslims, Christians and all other points of the compass, we need to learn to live together in peace, but if we keep on thinking we know better than God, then our children's children will be cursing our generation, asking how the frack did we get in this mess.

Oh and by the way, I am not asking you to start worshipping God, just heed his words, which are universal, Love your Neighbour as Yourself.

Now go in peace brother and sin no more, sorry you don't believe in sin, well just be a very nice person, which I am sure you are, give Vlad a big sloppy kiss and tell him you Love him

Gonnagle.

[Stranger]

I know where you and Berational are coming from, simple fact is God said nothing about keeping slaves, slavery is man made, but then you ask, why did God not step in!! he has ( he for a given he ) but we don't listen, it is all there...

It's all where? How do you know what this god of yours has or hasn't said?