Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...

[Sassy]

King James Bible
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

What does this mean for believers today?


I have found through my life with the LORD, that the truth is all you need to dispel the ugliness of the darkness within the world and within people.

In my life, I have seen that vengeance take place when wronged or treated unfairly. Not always a bad thing but a fair thing.
God hates deceit and he hates double standards. Especially someone being nice to your face then stabbing you in the back.

It is better to eat vegetables with people you love than the finest meat where there is hatred and strife.

People offering you meat at their table and reluctantly wanting you to have it.

I believe love is the rarest of commodities today. Jesus Christ died for all sins. If you believe you sin or not.
Every sin you could possibly come to mind is the reason Christ was brutally beaten, whipped and hung on a cross to die.
Spat at, jeered at and left in pain and suffering an agnonising death of suffocation.

Us taking revenge would only add to suffering and pain. For us, it is a sin to take revenge but not for God.
Whatever we believe as believer or atheist if it is the truth about what God tells us is sin then what happened to Christ
as depicted in the scene below did so because of those sins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4m1u7ZSA9Y

Watch it...

Then tell us how you feel that something you have done or will do caused that to happen.

Vengeance... but this is forgiveness... Forgive them for they know not what they do.
But we do know when we sin. We do know when we make light to be darkness and darkness light.

King James Bible. Isaiah 5:20.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

How can we take or want vengeance and unforgiveness within ourselves when the Son of God our Lord endured all that for us?

When a person lies, steals, cheats, commits adultery, goes with a prostitute and the list is endless.. then all that caused the death of Christ. I do not see the right and wrong but the affliction on God my saviours only begotten son.
It is any wonder that the world will hate us, if it hated him first. Christ did only good, for which of that good was he killed?
He did nothing deserving of death but false witnesses rose up against him. Even when disproved they stopped at nothing to kill him.

Jesus asked for forgiveness because they did not know he was the Son of God the Messiah.
But each person did not have to do as they did. They did not have to jeer or spit at him. They did not have a reason to crucify him. But man is such, he has no real love of his own in his heart. Sometimes the things we believe in are bigger than the things
people do to us which is wrong. Jesus believed and knew his Fathers words were true. How can we live any differently when we know that Christ is the Messiah the Son of God.


Exodus 23:6-7
"You shall not pervert the justice due to your needy brother in his dispute. "Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty.

We see why Judas knew he was guilty of betraying innocent blood.  False charge and killing the innocent or the righteous is something God tells us not to do.

I have learned in this world there is no true Justice. Only from God can you get true Justice.
How can anyone ignore the price Christ paid to bring us forgiveness?
Nevertheless pay it, he did.  Knowing this, how do atheist and believers real feel about this?

[floo]

As usual assertions with no verifiable evidence to support them. If god exists and gets off on vengeance what does that say about it? Nothing good that is for sure

[jjohnjil]

'Knowing this, how do atheist and believers real feel about this?'


As an atheist I can never understand how anyone can reconcile the torture of a human being, as you describe, with an act of forgiveness.  If God couldn't have found a more humane way of forgiving us our 'sins' then he certainly cannot be described as loving.

[Sassy]

'Knowing this, how do atheist and believers real feel about this?'


As an atheist I can never understand how anyone can reconcile the torture of a human being, as you describe, with an act of forgiveness.  If God couldn't have found a more humane way of forgiving us our 'sins' then he certainly cannot be described as loving.

I guess the sins of mankind... Look at the Jews and Hitler... How do you pay the price for cutting the womb open of a pregnant women with twins without , anesthesia and allowing her to bleed to death whilst you kill and examine her children in front of her?

May be you should reconcile it to the evil man has done to each other since the beginning of time simply because of how you feel.  Hatred is a powerful motivator and we see that hatred killed many people for many different reasons.
The 9/11 and the fear in voices of those speaking to loved ones from those planes some now knowing death was imminent.
Don't tell me or any other human being that you don't reconcile why Christ had to die that way because humans themselves inflicted those things he suffered on others.

The truth is every kind of sin had to be dealt with. There were 39 lashes within the medical world all illness and disease can be fitted into 39 catergories. The hatred of others and the jeers and rejection is for all those who have done the same to others.
Those who have murdered and those who treated others less than human or with contempt believing themselves a better person.

Don't tell me you do not understand the eye for an eye. As Christ said... turn the other cheek and do unto others as you want them to do for you.

You don't understand hell.
Did you not understand what Christ did when spoke of Dives and Lazarus?
Dives lived for eternity as he left Lazarus to live in real life.
Hell is not about torture and suffering of all natures projected onto you. Hell is living in the conditions you applied to others in life.  Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Does someone give you bad things...
Jesus asked for water they gave him vinegar. In the bible Jesus tells us..." If you son asked for bread would you give him a stone". He then says: " Bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children; how much more will God give good things to those who ask him".

Sometimes we fail to see that it is about giving good things and helping others. What you sow is what you reap.

[jjohnjil]

I guess the sins of mankind... Look at the Jews and Hitler... How do you pay the price for cutting the womb open of a pregnant women with twins without , anesthesia and allowing her to bleed to death whilst you kill and examine her children in front of her?

May be you should reconcile it to the evil man has done to each other since the beginning of time simply because of how you feel.  Hatred is a powerful motivator and we see that hatred killed many people for many different reasons.
The 9/11 and the fear in voices of those speaking to loved ones from those planes some now knowing death was imminent.
Don't tell me or any other human being that you don't reconcile why Christ had to die that way because humans themselves inflicted those things he suffered on others.

The truth is every kind of sin had to be dealt with. There were 39 lashes within the medical world all illness and disease can be fitted into 39 catergories. The hatred of others and the jeers and rejection is for all those who have done the same to others.
Those who have murdered and those who treated others less than human or with contempt believing themselves a better person.

Don't tell me you do not understand the eye for an eye. As Christ said... turn the other cheek and do unto others as you want them to do for you.

You don't understand hell.
Did you not understand what Christ did when spoke of Dives and Lazarus?
Dives lived for eternity as he left Lazarus to live in real life.
Hell is not about torture and suffering of all natures projected onto you. Hell is living in the conditions you applied to others in life.  Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Does someone give you bad things...
Jesus asked for water they gave him vinegar. In the bible Jesus tells us..." If you son asked for bread would you give him a stone". He then says: " Bad as you are, you know how to give good things to your children; how much more will God give good things to those who ask him".

Sometimes we fail to see that it is about giving good things and helping others. What you sow is what you reap.

I agree that some people have - and still do - act barbarically and yes perhaps they should be made to suffer.  But suppose a Russian general had caught Hitler in his bunker in Berlin and said "The only way I can forgive him his sins is to torture and kill my own son" would that be what you call justice?

That's what you tell us God did!

[Sassy]

I agree that some people have - and still do - act barbarically and yes perhaps they should be made to suffer.  But suppose a Russian general had caught Hitler in his bunker in Berlin and said "The only way I can forgive him his sins is to torture and kill my own son" would that be what you call justice?

That's what you tell us God did!

Didn't Hitler claim to be a Roman Catholic?
Does a believer do as Christ did or cause reason to heap suffering on Christ at the cross?

I believe that the things you reveal above are simply in line with your own feelings on the subject.
I will ask you this...
"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"
Truth is the suffering we have is due to sin, why add to the world suffering.
If as that general you could save the lives of those 6 million Jews would you give your sons life if he chose and wanted to do so?

No one took Christ's life. As he pointed out he freely chose to give it, to save others.
Our mind set reveals more about us. It reveals how we can choose to search for truth and reason why someone would do as Christ did. Or we can make excuses up and portray it differently according to our cause and often wrong way of thinking.

Personally, I see no other way of sin and the fall being dealt with. One man brought the sin and suffering. It took one innocent man to pay the penalty and redeem us from that first mans sin and the suffering it brought.

He saved the world... that is the world who understand and accept his sacrifice.

[jjohnjil]

Didn't Hitler claim to be a Roman Catholic?
Does a believer do as Christ did or cause reason to heap suffering on Christ at the cross?

I believe that the things you reveal above are simply in line with your own feelings on the subject.
I will ask you this...
"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"
Truth is the suffering we have is due to sin, why add to the world suffering.
If as that general you could save the lives of those 6 million Jews would you give your sons life if he chose and wanted to do so?

No one took Christ's life. As he pointed out he freely chose to give it, to save others.
Our mind set reveals more about us. It reveals how we can choose to search for truth and reason why someone would do as Christ did. Or we can make excuses up and portray it differently according to our cause and often wrong way of thinking.

Personally, I see no other way of sin and the fall being dealt with. One man brought the sin and suffering. It took one innocent man to pay the penalty and redeem us from that first mans sin and the suffering it brought.

He saved the world... that is the world who understand and accept his sacrifice.

"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"

Eh?  Read your reply again, Sassy, it makes no sense!

Is the general sinning for capturing the murderer of 6 million Jews?  So what's this about 'would he sin if he knew his son was going to die'!

If you are going to try to explain some part of the Bible you should at least think straight!

 

[Khatru]

Let's see now.

We either have....

A perfect and omniscient entity like your god (who we hear is positively overflowing with love for his people) created a primitive and barbaric justice system and expects his creation to enact it.

Or....

A primitive and barbaric people produced tales of a primitive and barbaric god who wanted his followers to adopt a primitive and barbaric justice system.  Which, co-incidentally, is the only kind of justice these people know.

And it is barbaric.

If our government brought back capital punishment and extended it to cover women who weren't virgins on their wedding night, you'd think they'd lost the plot.  However, when your invisible sky pixie's justice is  exactly that you see it as an act of transcendent love.

[Sassy]

"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"

Eh?  Read your reply again, Sassy, it makes no sense!

Is the general sinning for capturing the murderer of 6 million Jews?  So what's this about 'would he sin if he knew his son was going to die'!

If you are going to try to explain some part of the Bible you should at least think straight!

The General and Hitler isn't in the bible?/
You asked me

'Knowing this, how do atheist and believers real feel about this?'


As an atheist I can never understand how anyone can reconcile the torture of a human being, as you describe, with an act of forgiveness.  If God couldn't have found a more humane way of forgiving us our 'sins' then he certainly cannot be described as loving.

I explained to you how Hitler a human being sinned by torture and killing human beings.
Was there a humane way of his torture or killing, or is torture and killing just what it is, evil which no matter how we look at it, cannot be made fanciful or humane?

Having made a longer post I then received this from you.

I agree that some people have - and still do - act barbarically and yes perhaps they should be made to suffer.  But suppose a Russian general had caught Hitler in his bunker in Berlin and said "The only way I can forgive him his sins is to torture and kill my own son" would that be what you call justice?

That's what you tell us God did!

I then answered and provided the truth from the bible best way I could given you gave me the Russian General bit.

Didn't Hitler claim to be a Roman Catholic?
Does a believer do as Christ did or cause reason to heap suffering on Christ at the cross?

I believe that the things you reveal above are simply in line with your own feelings on the subject.
I will ask you this...
"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"
Truth is the suffering we have is due to sin, why add to the world suffering.
If as that general you could save the lives of those 6 million Jews would you give your sons life if he chose and wanted to do so?

No one took Christ's life. As he pointed out he freely chose to give it, to save others.
Our mind set reveals more about us. It reveals how we can choose to search for truth and reason why someone would do as Christ did. Or we can make excuses up and portray it differently according to our cause and often wrong way of thinking.

Personally, I see no other way of sin and the fall being dealt with. One man brought the sin and suffering. It took one innocent man to pay the penalty and redeem us from that first mans sin and the suffering it brought.

He saved the world... that is the world who understand and accept his sacrifice.

You replied.

"if you were Hitler or that General would you sin in the first instance if you knew your son would suffer?"

Eh?  Read your reply again, Sassy, it makes no sense!

Is the general sinning for capturing the murderer of 6 million Jews?  So what's this about 'would he sin if he knew his son was going to die'!

If you are going to try to explain some part of the Bible you should at least think straight!

May be if you are going to ask questions you should be able to think of all the answers before they are made.
That way you would make counter productive replies.
You clearly asked....

But suppose a Russian general had caught Hitler in his bunker in Berlin and said "The only way I can forgive him his sins is to torture and kill my own son" would that be what you call justice?

Is Justice the real issue? You believe Christ dying an injustice?   If you are now trying to say that God was unjust in allowing Christ to die, then show how any person who gives their lives to save another is about justice.

I believe I had answered your posts openly and honestly. Allowing for genuine recourse and explaining how someone could allow their child to die for another. However this has been far from the truth according to your last reply.

EVERY year in November we remember the thousands who gave their lives so we could have our freedom to live today.
Newspapers told the stories of 9/11 of firemen killed to try and save those trapped in burning buildings.
It isn't injustice the actions of these people are brave and selfless. The true injustice is the people getting away with it, that caused it. Is the parent of those fireman responsible or unjust to allowed them to serve knowing it could cost their lives?

I think we understand each other clearly now. Either make your point clear and show how it is connected to the bible or admit
you are straying and mixing two different fractions of the argument together.

[Sassy]

Let's see now.

We either have....

A perfect and omniscient entity like your god (who we hear is positively overflowing with love for his people) created a primitive and barbaric justice system and expects his creation to enact it.

Explain both positions and show how using the bible you came to this conclusion using NT and OT in your argument.
Show how this refers to salvation through Christ and how Christ is guilty of any sin.

Or....

A primitive and barbaric people produced tales of a primitive and barbaric god who wanted his followers to adopt a primitive and barbaric justice system.  Which, co-incidentally, is the only kind of justice these people know.

And it is barbaric.

If our government brought back capital punishment and extended it to cover women who weren't virgins on their wedding night, you'd think they'd lost the plot.  However, when your invisible sky pixie's justice is  exactly that you see it as an act of transcendent love.

So a judge is unjust in sentencing criminals or murderers.

And you use something that has never been part of out justice system to engage in your unbelievable and even less realistic
fantasies.

Do us a favour... stick to facts and not your own imagination.

[Khatru]

Explain both positions and show how using the bible you came to this conclusion using NT and OT in your argument.
Show how this refers to salvation through Christ and how Christ is guilty of any sin.

So a judge is unjust in sentencing criminals or murderers.

And you use something that has never been part of out justice system to engage in your unbelievable and even less realistic
fantasies.

Do us a favour... stick to facts and not your own imagination.

You need to take that neam out of your eye first.

Although I can understand your reluctance to do so as that would necessitate thinking for yourself as opposed to being told what to think.

[jjohnjil]

The General and Hitler isn't in the bible?/
You asked me
I explained to you how Hitler a human being sinned by torture and killing human beings.
Was there a humane way of his torture or killing, or is torture and killing just what it is, evil which no matter how we look at it, cannot be made fanciful or humane?

Having made a longer post I then received this from you.

I then answered and provided the truth from the bible best way I could given you gave me the Russian General bit.


You replied.
May be if you are going to ask questions you should be able to think of all the answers before they are made.
That way you would make counter productive replies.
You clearly asked....
Is Justice the real issue? You believe Christ dying an injustice?   If you are now trying to say that God was unjust in allowing Christ to die, then show how any person who gives their lives to save another is about justice.

I believe I had answered your posts openly and honestly. Allowing for genuine recourse and explaining how someone could allow their child to die for another. However this has been far from the truth according to your last reply.

EVERY year in November we remember the thousands who gave their lives so we could have our freedom to live today.
Newspapers told the stories of 9/11 of firemen killed to try and save those trapped in burning buildings.
It isn't injustice the actions of these people are brave and selfless. The true injustice is the people getting away with it, that caused it. Is the parent of those fireman responsible or unjust to allowed them to serve knowing it could cost their lives?

I think we understand each other clearly now. Either make your point clear and show how it is connected to the bible or admit
you are straying and mixing two different fractions of the argument together.

Of course it is connected to a Bible story!  If you cannot see that God torturing and killing a human being (as you say Christ was at that time) not to save some innocent's life as your 9/11 firemen example, but so that he can forgive other human beings for doing atrocious acts, was an injustice ... then I am wasting my time replying to you!

[Sassy]

You need to take that neam out of your eye first.

Although I can understand your reluctance to do so as that would necessitate thinking for yourself as opposed to being told what to think.

You see a neam in my eye?  Surely, you are not serious.

As I said, best to learn about a subject before attempting to speak about it...

I can see the whole forest in your eye, but you won't have a speck of understanding what that is all about...

[Sassy]

Of course it is connected to a Bible story!  If you cannot see that God torturing and killing a human being (as you say Christ was at that time) not to save some innocent's life as your 9/11 firemen example, but so that he can forgive other human beings for doing atrocious acts, was an injustice ... then I am wasting my time replying to you!

Thought better of Jjohnjil,

Why not just admit you got it wrong and start again.

Your post shows a deliberate attempt to mislead others about what you actually wrote having been shown the error of your way.
I am quite happy to answer honest and well deliberated and thought out posts.
But you just showed yourself to be insincere in your posting and unable to admit to your mistake.


I can see no further use discussing this matter with someone who keeps moving the goal post and refusing to answer according to what has been discussed already.

Thanks for your time and posts but in reality we cannot debate on a subject you have created purely in your own mind and without any open minded reasoning from yourself.

[Sebastian Toe]

Hell is not about torture and suffering of all natures projected onto you. Hell is living in the conditions you applied to others in life.  Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

So if in life you were generally a good person most of the time, then most of your time in hell would be good?
Is that about right?

[jjohnjil]

Thought better of Jjohnjil,

Why not just admit you got it wrong and start again.

Your post shows a deliberate attempt to mislead others about what you actually wrote having been shown the error of your way.
I am quite happy to answer honest and well deliberated and thought out posts.
But you just showed yourself to be insincere in your posting and unable to admit to your mistake.


I can see no further use discussing this matter with someone who keeps moving the goal post and refusing to answer according to what has been discussed already.

Thanks for your time and posts but in reality we cannot debate on a subject you have created purely in your own mind and without any open minded reasoning from yourself.

You and I certainly think differently, Sassy, I cannot understand your reasoning on this or most of your posts.  I am just fortunate, I suppose, not to have been indoctrinated into thinking whatever the Bible says - even when it makes no sense at all - as infallible.
.

[floo]

Sass's posts seem to demonstrate she is getting more and more desperate to prove to herself what she believes in the 'truth'.

[ippy]

You need to take that neam out of your eye first.

Although I can understand your reluctance to do so as that would necessitate thinking for yourself as opposed to being told what to think.

Why don't you deal with Sassy in the same way that you would do battle with the Mysterons Khatru?

You're just as likely to get as much sense out of them as you'd get from our Sass. OO

ippy

[Khatru]

You see a neam in my eye?  Surely, you are not serious.

As I said, best to learn about a subject before attempting to speak about it...

I can see the whole forest in your eye, but you won't have a speck of understanding what that is all about...

Of course there's a beam in your eye - it makes you oblivious to anything other than your myth book.

It also makes you think good of bad things:  we've already seen how you defend the indiscriminate killing of babies.

Now you're talking about your invisible sky pixie's justice.

Well, we already know that "might makes right" is his justice code.

After all, your myth book itself tells us that robbery, destruction and murder are not wrong when it's the Bible god that's doing it.

If you believed your god was instructing you to kill the child next door you'd do exactly that.

[Khatru]

Why don't you deal with Sassy in the same way that you would do battle with the Mysterons Khatru?

You're just as likely to get as much sense out of them as you'd get from our Sass. OO

ippy

"This is the voice of the Mysterons.....we will make Sass think for herself"

[floo]

Biblical literalism can screw many folk up and certainly doesn't make them better, more decent people. It is really creepy that some can believe every word in the Bible to be true, when there is no evidence to support most of the stories.

On this forum, and others of its ilk, we have had examples of fundies enjoying the prospect of their unpleasant deity wreaking vengeance on those who don't see it their way, including other Christians.

I know I have said it before but make no apology for repeating myself, those who bring the faith into disrepute like the two front runners on this forum, as well as several who have been banned, or no longer post here, might discover they aren't welcome in heaven.

[Brownie]

Floo: On this forum, and others of its ilk, we have had examples of fundies enjoying the prospect of their unpleasant deity wreaking vengeance on those who don't see it their way, including other Christians.

I've never encountered anyone on this forum, since I started posting again a year ago, who enjoys the prospect of God wreaking vengeance on anyone else.  Next time it happens, please point me in that direction so I can read it for myself.

[floo]

Floo: On this forum, and others of its ilk, we have had examples of fundies enjoying the prospect of their unpleasant deity wreaking vengeance on those who don't see it their way, including other Christians.

I've never encountered anyone on this forum, since I started posting again a year ago, who enjoys the prospect of God wreaking vengeance on anyone else.  Next time it happens, please point me in that direction so I can read it for myself.

WOW! You obviously aren't reading the same posts as me!

[Khatru]

Floo: On this forum, and others of its ilk, we have had examples of fundies enjoying the prospect of their unpleasant deity wreaking vengeance on those who don't see it their way, including other Christians.

I've never encountered anyone on this forum, since I started posting again a year ago, who enjoys the prospect of God wreaking vengeance on anyone else.  Next time it happens, please point me in that direction so I can read it for myself.

Please allow me.....

TW certainly seems to get off on the idea of eternal torture for all those who don't see it his way!

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=post;quote=612332;topic=12021.50;last_msg=615713

`

That's right and I get my info from the bible.
~TW~

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?action=post;quote=612368;topic=12021.50;last_msg=615713

[Brownie]

Obviously not.  The idea of anyone enjoying, relishing, the thought of someone else in any kind of torment (torment wasn't actually mentioned but I deduce that is what you are talking about), is not something I have come across here.

Regarding the title of this thread, ''Vengeance is mine....etc'', I take it to mean that we are not supposed to enact vengeance.  We are taught (& you were taught once upon a time), that on the day of judgement everyone, sinners and those who haven't sinned (much), will stand before God, give an account of ourselves and be judged.  Then it is up to him and he can see into a person's heart and stand in their shoes, knowing all circumstances, better than any of us, so we really can't tell who will be with him for eternity and who will not.  If we knew now, we might be surprised!

We have the law of the land to judge and convict (or let go), people who may have broken the law;  it's not right for people to then try to add to the lawful punishment. If someone is in prison it's wrong for prison officers to punish them further, likewise they should be protected from any fellow inmates. As for us, it's done, we should leave it alone.  They will be judged one day and, who knows, we could be judged more harshly.

(Khatru I have seen your post and will look at the link you provided, thank you.
Done. Actually couldn't get anything on either link except what floo said, not the other person.  TW?  Does he still post here or does he have a different name?)