Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...

[floo]

Obviously not.  The idea of anyone enjoying, relishing, the thought of someone else in any kind of torment (torment wasn't actually mentioned but I deduce that is what you are talking about), is not something I have come across here.

Regarding the title of this thread, ''Vengeance is mine....etc'', I take it to mean that we are not supposed to enact vengeance.  We are taught (& you were taught once upon a time), that on the day of judgement everyone, sinners and those who haven't sinned (much), will stand before God, give an account of ourselves and be judged.  Then it is up to him and he can see into a person's heart and stand in their shoes, knowing all circumstances, better than any of us, so we really can't tell who will be with him for eternity and who will not.  If we knew now, we might be surprised!

We have the law of the land to judge and convict (or let go), people who may have broken the law;  it's not right for people to then try to add to the lawful punishment. If someone is in prison it's wrong for prison officers to punish them further, likewise they should be protected from any fellow inmates. As for us, it's done, we should leave it alone.  They will be judged one day and, who knows, we could be judged more harshly.

(Khatru I have seen your post and will look at the link you provided, thank you.
Done. Actually couldn't get anything on either link except what floo said, not the other person.  TW?  Does he still post here or does he have a different name?)

Sadly TW enjoys telling us we are going to hell, he last posted on May 17th! I am surprised you haven't seen his 'lovely' posts. He and Sass seem to be cut from the same cloth!

[Brownie]

It seems longer than that since TW last posted, maybe he has left us.  Of course I remember him and have had an exchange with him, iirc.  He did say some explosive things but I cannot remember him saying precisely what you suggest though I'm not saying he didn't.

You can't compare him to Sassy, they are not at all alike.  Whatever you think of her and her posts (& I don't think it is quite the thing to do, to bring up fellow posters' names unless you have something good to say), she wouldn't relish the idea of anyone 'going to Hell'.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

It seems longer than that since TW last posted, maybe he has left us.  Of course I remember him and have had an exchange with him, iirc.  He did say some explosive things but I cannot remember him saying precisely what you suggest though I'm not saying he didn't.

IIRC he most certainly has.

You can't compare him to Sassy, they are not at all alike.  Whatever you think of her and her posts (& I don't think it is quite the thing to do, to bring up fellow posters' names unless you have something good to say), she wouldn't relish the idea of anyone 'going to Hell'.

Actually I agree with you on this one. However, her desire to protect certain believers (regardless of their views, and even though they might contradict her views) means she comes across as completely unable to condemn such views if they are expressed by a Christian.

[ippy]

"This is the voice of the Mysterons.....we will make Sass think for herself"

They would have to be pretty powerfull to make Sass think, just for starters, but those luminous O's, would need some kind of power boost and I bet Sass doesn't believe in the Mysterons, I know it's difficult to believe but there's still some people that don't believe in them.

ippy

[wigginhall]

Famous quote attributed to Aquinas, who is not a member of this forum: 'In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in Heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned.'

[Brownie]

Oh charming, give me strength.   I do wonder if people who say or said such things really think about what they are saying;  if they did, they wouldn't be able to sleep.

Anyway, Aquinas is wrong on more than one front.  We are not taught that 'we' ('we' hope), will be looking down on 'them'.  In addition, the idea that we would be pleased about it is horrific!  Aquinas lived in an era that I would not like to visit.

[Owlswing]

Oh charming, give me strength.   I do wonder if people who say or said such things really think about what they are saying;  if they did, they wouldn't be able to sleep.

Anyway, Aquinas is wrong on more than one front.  We are not taught that 'we' ('we' hope), will be looking down on 'them'.  In addition, the idea that we would be pleased about it is horrific!  Aquinas lived in an era that I would not like to visit.

I'm sorry, Brownie, but I think Aquinus knew exactly what he was saying and meant evey word of it.

In doing some research for a project some yeras ago I had the misfortune to have to read quite a bit of his writings and some of them are still treated as the basis for much Catholic dogma. For many years his was the book referred to to answer most questions as to whar=t God and Jesus intended for the world and the people in it. The Catholic Church, from the earliest times to the end of the wars to try and destroy Protestantism, was one of the most murderous organisations ever to infest the Earth.

They made damn sure that heretics suffered the flames of Hell by sending them there by burning them alive. 

[Sassy]

So if in life you were generally a good person most of the time, then most of your time in hell would be good?
Is that about right?

WHAT is a good person?  The bible teaches only God is good. Christ was called good because being good is really being without sin. In life have you forgiven your debtors and have they forgiven you?

It clearly states that at the end of time everyone will give an account. Books will be open.
Do you believe when you insult God you are doing a good thing?
So where do we start with what a good person is?

[floo]

It seems longer than that since TW last posted, maybe he has left us.  Of course I remember him and have had an exchange with him, iirc.  He did say some explosive things but I cannot remember him saying precisely what you suggest though I'm not saying he didn't.

You can't compare him to Sassy, they are not at all alike.  Whatever you think of her and her posts (& I don't think it is quite the thing to do, to bring up fellow posters' names unless you have something good to say), she wouldn't relish the idea of anyone 'going to Hell'.

TW posted on the politics and currents affairs forum, on May 17th. I think he and Sass are very much alike, imo, but we will leave it at that.

[Sassy]

You and I certainly think differently, Sassy, I cannot understand your reasoning on this or most of your posts.  I am just fortunate, I suppose, not to have been indoctrinated into thinking whatever the Bible says - even when it makes no sense at all - as infallible.
.

There is you indoctrination:-

  I am just fortunate, I suppose, not to have been indoctrinated into thinking whatever the Bible says - even when it makes no sense at all - as infallible.

You see no one is indoctrinated hence the lie a lot of atheists believe.  Most who are raised Roman Catholic lose their faith and belief in God in Adulthood. The truth is you cannot make a person believe in God. God is in our dna he created it, and we all have that decision to make. The bible can be read by any person but the Gentiles had never read the OT who came to Christ in the NT book of Acts. Those who came to Christ and received the Holy Spirit already had the giver of truth to teach and lead them. 

In the OT the Jews came to know God by obeying his commandments and teachings of the Prophets.
But Jeremiah 31:31-34 shows the new way and covenant in Christ would be about the person knowing God.
So the choice is about the individual and their minds when they accept Christ are opened to understand the Scriptures.

You cannot be indoctrinated. Faith in God is really about those who seek and want truth.


King James Bible
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

If you ever came to the stage where you really wanted the truth, not just to know but to live with and know God.
If you searched with all your heart, you would find it.

Never about brain washing always truth and Spirit.

[Hope]

As usual assertions with no verifiable evidence to support them. If god exists and gets off on vengeance what does that say about it? Nothing good that is for sure

Does it say that 'God gets off on vengeance', Floo?  No.  Does it say that we as individuals oughtn't to mete out punishment?  Yes.  After all, isn't that what UK law says - that 'vengeance' is the responsibility of society, not you or I?

[Sassy]

Sass's posts seem to demonstrate she is getting more and more desperate to prove to herself what she believes in the 'truth'.

No Christian is desperate when it comes to Gods word the truth and Spirit.
So much wrong and what appears desperation on your own part to insult and tear down that which you have no knowledge or understanding about.

Why would I need to prove anything the truth to myself?  Honest people who seek God are not about deceiving themselves or anyone else. Are you desperate? Do you need to prove to yourself what you believe?  Can you actually give any reasons why an atheist or believer would have to prove what they believe to themselves?

When it comes down to is, your ignorance about God, Christ and believers is constantly shown in the remarks you make.
We are never alone for God is with us in Christ Jesus. Is there any other proof than Gods presence with an individual, that he exists?

It is you who are desperate and it is you making false accusation reflecting your own doubt and desperation onto others.

Christianity is a personal thing... you cannot give your oil to someone else. They have to have their own oil.
You have no lamp let alone no oil.  A believer requires the Holy Spirit to guide them and live with them.
He changes the old into the new.

Maybe you are desperate to prove to yourself what you want others to believe with you.

My beliefs will never harm others if they believe and follow the truths. But your belief would harm anyone who adopted it.
I believe sometimes you need a reality check. You just got yours.

[floo]

Does it say that 'God gets off on vengeance', Floo?  No.  Does it say that we as individuals oughtn't to mete out punishment?  Yes.  After all, isn't that what UK law says - that 'vengeance' is the responsibility of society, not you or I?

The deity featured in the not so good book appears to get off on it. Only a real nut job would wish to flood a whole planet, if that mythical tale any credibility.

[Sebastian Toe]

WHAT is a good person?  The bible teaches only God is good. Christ was called good because being good is really being without sin.

You said

Hell is living in the conditions you applied to others in life.  Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

I am trying to get what you mean by that.

One way to interpret what you said is that if you lived a life, where for the most part, you 'applied conditions to others' which were not evil and not horrible and not nasty, then according to you - hell would be living in those conditions.
Which for the most part would not be a bad thing, would it?

That is what I meant by being 'generally good'.
Now you want to introduce 'good' as being perfect, without 'sin'.
Well none of us is 'perfect', which is why I said generally.

So lets drop the word 'good' as you seem so hung up on it and try again.

[Sebastian Toe]

In life have you forgiven your debtors and have they forgiven you?

What do you mean by 'debtor'?

[Sassy]

Of course there's a beam in your eye - it makes you oblivious to anything other than your myth book.

You are ignorant of what the speck in your eye is. Go away and learn the teaching.

It also makes you think good of bad things:  we've already seen how you defend the indiscriminate killing of babies.

So you would kill all the adults and leave the babies to die a slow agonising death or for animals to kill?

You need to wake up to yourself... Do you think no babies killed in any war by Man.
Didn't they kill the babies themselves? Didn't mankind have not care for their children. Didn't they sacrifice their Children to Molech

Leviticus 18:21
Verse Concepts
'You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD.

God destroyed the nations who were already teaching to offer their children as sacrifices to idols/false Gods.
The truth is God hated such things and he destroyed completely those nations so they could not lead the Israelites astray.
In the parts of the bible, the parts where Nations are destroyed or even Pharaoh and his armies it is all about Nations who kill children and even mistreat others.

God actually was putting an end to such things by destroying Nations who did this.
He was just and allowed no nation who harmed their children or could harm the children of other nations to exist.

God told the Israelites that there was to be no child burnt offerings etc.
But the evil was such that they did it. Googled these for you.
Read through them... God hates child sacrifices. By destroying nations and their descendants he put an end to it.

Child sacrifice
Most Relevant Verses

Leviticus 18:21
Verse Concepts
'You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD.

Exodus 22:29
Verse Concepts
"You shall not delay the offering from your harvest and your vintage The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.

Exodus 13:12-16
you shall devote to the LORD the first offspring of every womb, and the first offspring of every beast that you own; the males belong to the LORD. "But every first offspring of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, then you shall break its neck; and every firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem. "And it shall be when your son asks you in time to come, saying, 'What is this?' then you shall say to him, 'With a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery.   read more.
Exodus 34:19
Verse Concepts
"The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.

Deuteronomy 18:10
Verse Concepts
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

2 Kings 3:27
Verse Concepts
Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land.

2 Kings 16:3
Verse Concepts
But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and even made his son pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out from before the sons of Israel.

2 Chronicles 28:3
Verse Concepts
Moreover, he burned incense in the valley of Ben-hinnom and burned his sons in fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had driven out before the sons of Israel.

2 Kings 17:17
Verse Concepts
Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him.

2 Kings 21:6
Verse Concepts
He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger.

2 Chronicles 33:6
Verse Concepts
He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

2 Kings 23:10
Verse Concepts
He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.

Isaiah 57:5
Verse Concepts
Who inflame yourselves among the oaks, Under every luxuriant tree, Who slaughter the children in the ravines, Under the clefts of the crags?

Jeremiah 7:31
Verse Concepts
"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.

Deuteronomy 12:31
Verse Concepts
"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Leviticus 20:2-5
"You shall also say to the sons of Israel: 'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 'I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name. 'If the people of the land, however, should ever disregard that man when he gives any of his offspring to Molech, so as not to put him to death,   read more.
Psalm 106:35-38
But they mingled with the nations And learned their practices, And served their idols, Which became a snare to them. They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons,   read more.
Jeremiah 32:35
Verse Concepts
"They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Hosea 13:2
Verse Concepts
And now they sin more and more, And make for themselves molten images, Idols skillfully made from their silver, All of them the work of craftsmen They say of them, "Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!"

Ezekiel 20:26
Verse Concepts
and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the LORD."'

Ezekiel 20:31
Verse Concepts
"When you offer your gifts, when you cause your sons to pass through the fire, you are defiling yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "I will not be inquired of by you.

Ezekiel 23:37
Verse Concepts
"For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. Thus they have committed adultery with their idols and even caused their sons, whom they bore to Me, to pass through the fire to them as food.

Jeremiah 19:4-5
"Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

Ezekiel 16:20-21
"Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter? "You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire.

Genesis 22:1-2
Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, "Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Hebrews 11:17
Verse Concepts
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Genesis 22:16
Verse Concepts
and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,

John 3:16
Verse Concepts
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Romans 8:32
Verse Concepts
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Jeremiah 19:5
Verse Concepts
and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;

Ezekiel 16:21
Verse Concepts
"You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire.

2 Kings 17:31
Verse Concepts
and the Avvites made Nibhaz and Tartak; and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech the gods of Sepharvaim.

[/quote]

As you can see witchcraft and Paganism were the original cause of Children being sacrificed to false Gods.
God put an end to those nations and punished the Israelites if they failed to obey his rules about their children.
Now go away and stop bringing up something you have no understanding about. God hates the killing of Children and killed those who did it, and their descendants so they could not do it again.

Now you're talking about your invisible sky pixie's justice.

Well, we already know that "might makes right" is his justice code.

After all, your myth book itself tells us that robbery, destruction and murder are not wrong when it's the Bible god that's doing it.

If you believed your god was instructing you to kill the child next door you'd do exactly that.

The truth has shown how you are the one in denial.

The book shows that God does not want the things man makes up for himself.
It was man who decided to sacrifice his Children.
Abraham showed a faith that knew God could bring his Son back from the dead.
The same Faith of Abraham that saw Christs coming. It also shows that God did not want and does not want the children or people of others sacrificed to him. Would you promise God to sacrifice a person to him?
Mans nature is the evil part...


Jephtah’s daughter


Having been told they must not make human sacrifices what does Jephtah do?

He promises to sacrifice the first thing that greets him. Prepared to kill another person then his only daughter is the first.

He tells her and she agrees to fulfill the promise. A promise wrongly made doing that which God does not want.
But he is taught a life lesson he will never forget.
A lesson to us all that God does not want us to make sacrifices of humans.

Now you know that the truth is these people who were destroyed along with their descendants were about ridding the world of such evil things as sacrificing their children. These people were not civilised they had no police stations and no one to stop them killing their children. It is that part of it's history modern paganism has left behind. They made blood sacrifices of their children and people.  So the truth is God destroyed in mankind that which was not good. He killed off those who killed their children and the Children as they would have only carried on the same practice.

Now the truth is out you can shut up! Because you were wrong all along. God killed those who killed their children and their children to stop more being killed.

[floo]

You have just proved what a psycho your version of god is, Sass!

[Sassy]

If you believed your god was instructing you to kill the child next door you'd do exactly that.

We would not kill a child next door because we know our God would never instruct us to do so.
Knowing the history of the OT and the truth about his actions we know he got rid of those people who practiced such things and completely wiped them all out, including their children and babies to put an end to such evil practices of sacrificing their children.

Had you read the bible and all that was before and after the verses you cherry pick you would have not wasted everyone elses time concerning the truth. Ask the Pagans and the false God worshippers why their ancient ancestors killed their children in sacrifice? The truth is mans own evil. Man thought it all up on their own. Abraham and Isaac was clear proof that whilst those who know God and his promises know he can do anything. They also know that God does not want anyone to sacrifice their child just have the faith Abraham had to know God could raise the dead and do anything.

[floo]

A god who set Abraham up to  sacrifice his son then says, 'Just joking' before the deed is done is a complete nutter! If the story was true, Isaac must have been terrified, and Abraham an unfit parents to give into a voice in his head.

[Sebastian Toe]

Knowing the history of the OT and the truth about his actions we know he got rid of those people who practiced such things and completely wiped them all out, including their children and babies to put an end to such evil practices of sacrificing their children.

If it worked out well then there will have been no child sacrifices in the world, ever, since that event?

Is that the case?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

We would not kill a child next door because we know our God would never instruct us to do so.
Knowing the history of the OT and the truth about his actions we know he got rid of those people who practiced such things and completely wiped them all out, including their children and babies to put an end to such evil practices of sacrificing their children.

So in order to stop human sacrifices he ordered/committed genocide.

Nice solution.

[Sassy]

If it worked out well then there will have been no child sacrifices in the world, ever, since that event?

Is that the case?

Why do you think Pagans have tried to separate themselves from their history?
ARE YOU everywhere in the world and does every religion in the world sacrifice their children to pagan Gods?
Christians do not offer their children as sacrifices. Jews do not offer their children as sacrifices.
Are you saying that religions throughout the world ALL offer their children as Sacrifices?

Not really a sensible answer, was it ST?

Christ gave up his life for mankind. You might give up your life to save your brother.
But no one takes it, if you have a choice and freely give it.
God tells us the greatest love we can have for another is to give our lives for them.
No take their lives away from them.

Life is precious to God. We will one day all give an account. He has tried to save us before that time by sending his Son.
A Son who made it clear he gave up his life willingly a life given for you and I.

I believe God shows us our Children are meant to be a blessing. But some children rebel against their parents and God.
Those selfish and full of pride who believe only in themselves and their own ways.
Everyone at fault but the real culprit themselves.  God is good and he loves us, wanted us to know the true way.

Love is Gods answer and he had to teach us his way. The true way of truth and goodness.
Being just he has revealed that when we break the law there is a penalty.
God provides a way for that price to be paid if we only accept it.

[Sebastian Toe]

Are you saying that religions throughout the world ALL offer their children as Sacrifices?

No I am most definitely not saying that and if you took the time to actually read my reply then you would clearly see that.

Here it is here.

If it worked out well then there will have been no child sacrifices in the world, ever, since that event?

Is that the case?

Yours was not really a sensible reply, was it Sassy?

Would you care to try again?

[Khatru]

So where do we start with what a good person is?

How about someone who doesn't kill babies?

[Khatru]

Do you think no babies killed in any war by Man.

Of course I don't but I do hate it and I condemn it. 

Unlike you who loves what your god does and refuses to condemn his baby-killing activities.  In fact, you seek to justify your god's murderous actions.

If your god was omnipotent he could rid society of evil doers without killing babies.  What's more, he could do it with less effort than it takes for you to blink.

Didn't they kill the babies themselves? Didn't mankind have not care for their children. Didn't they sacrifice their Children to Molech

Your invisible sky pixie is no better than Moloch.  The Bible god says that sacrificing your children is a sin but when he called upon Abraham to do just that, Abraham was considered just and righteous for being ready to sacrifice Isaac.

Now the truth is out you can shut up! Because you were wrong all along. God killed those who killed their children and their children to stop more being killed.

Actually, the bible god makes it worse for children.

"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them."

Jeremiah 19:9

In this myth, the people were sacrificing their children to Baal.  Good job your invisible sky pixie is on hand to stop this slaughter of innocent children, eh?

Well....no...not quite.

What does your deity of choice do?

He gets angry at the adults and arranges it so that they now eat their children.

How about that?  Rather than step in and save the children, your god's judgement is to ensure that even more children die.  Now, instead of sacrificing their children, your god is making the parents eat them.

What is it about your god's love that entails so much death and suffering?

See what your beliefs mean?

It's not just baby killing and incest that you have to defend but you can now add cannibalism to that list.