Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...

[Khatru]

We would not kill a child next door because we know our God would never instruct us to do so.

I didn't say "when" your god tells you to do this, I said "if".

You're putting limits on what your god can/can't do and I thought you believers say there is nothing he can't do.

Remember, it's "if" and not "when"

Now, please try again.  Picture the scene......

You wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a heavenly fanfare and standing before you in a blaze of glory is your God.

"You have been a good and trusty servant to Me" says Yaweh; "Now I have a special task for you"

"The unbeliever next door has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and My righteous wrath has risen.  For his punishment I command you to kill his child"

"Do this in My name and the heavens will forever sing to My glory"

Do you obey your god?

Yes or no?

[Brownie]

I think Sassy has explained the meaning of the Biblical stories she quotes very well indeed.  I've gained some new insights.  I know people who do not believe in God will think it is all nonsense but I do wonder if people actually read the posts and try to see them from a different point of view, even if they don't agree.  Some are difficult to read but it's worth staying the course.  Certainly on this thread I have found it worthwhile to read carefully.

Am I the only one on here who thinks this?  Or are some others shy to say so.

[floo]

I think Sassy has explained the meaning of the Biblical stories she quotes very well indeed.  I've gained some new insights.  I know people who do not believe in God will think it is all nonsense but I do wonder if people actually read the posts and try to see them from a different point of view, even if they don't agree.  Some are difficult to read but it's worth staying the course.  Certainly on this thread I have found it worthwhile to read carefully.

Am I the only one on here who thinks this?  Or are some others shy to say so.

I think you are in the minority if you think Sass makes much sense, but each to their own.

[Hope]

Picture the scene......

You wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a heavenly fanfare and standing before you in a blaze of glory is your God.

"You have been a good and trusty servant to Me" says Yaweh; "Now I have a special task for you"

"The unbeliever next door has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and My righteous wrath has risen.  For his punishment I command you to kill his child"

"Do this in My name and the heavens will forever sing to My glory"

Do you obey your god?

Yes or no?

'If' my God instructed me to such a thing, I would practise what Jesus and the writers of the NT documents urged their listeners and readers to do - to test the spirit of the instruction.  Since I do not believe that my God would ever issue such an instruction, I would treat it for what it would seem to be - something emanating from a source that was not 'my God'.

Amongst other indicators of this is the comment "Do this in My name and the heavens will forever sing to My glory".  The heavens already forever sing to God's glory; we are often told that killing (anyone) is more likely to stop them singing those praises.

You're putting limits on what your god can/can't do and I thought you believers say there is nothing he can't do.

There is a considerable difference between 'can/can't' and 'would/wouldn't', Khat.  Out of interest, if you felt that some external entity - perhaps a human agency - was telling you to do what you are suggesting the Christian God might do, what would you do, and why?

[floo]

So you don't believe god told Abraham to go through the motions of sacrificing Isaac, albeit to pull the plug at the last moment?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

'If' my God instructed me to such a thing, I would practise what Jesus and the writers of the NT documents urged their listeners and readers to do - to test the spirit of the instruction.  Since I do not believe that my God would ever issue such an instruction, I would treat it for what it would seem to be - something emanating from a source that was not 'my God'.

You have to admit though that he has a past record of ordering people to be killed. So some sort of call might come.

There is a considerable difference between 'can/can't' and 'would/wouldn't', Khat.  Out of interest, if you felt that some external entity - perhaps a human agency - was telling you to do what you are suggesting the Christian God might do, what would you do, and why?

Tell someone that I had had that experience. My wife, a friend, GP, the police (if an actual person told me to harm someone else). I should imagine that I would find it disturbing.

[Khatru]

'If' my God instructed me to such a thing, I would practise what Jesus and the writers of the NT documents urged their listeners and readers to do - to test the spirit of the instruction.  Since I do not believe that my God would ever issue such an instruction, I would treat it for what it would seem to be - something emanating from a source that was not 'my God'.

Amongst other indicators of this is the comment "Do this in My name and the heavens will forever sing to My glory".  The heavens already forever sing to God's glory; we are often told that killing (anyone) is more likely to stop them singing those praises.
There is a considerable difference between 'can/can't' and 'would/wouldn't', Khat.  Out of interest, if you felt that some external entity - perhaps a human agency - was telling you to do what you are suggesting the Christian God might do, what would you do, and why?

Semantics, Hope.

The words I chose were just for fun.

The point I'm making (which believers seem so reluctant to face up to) is that if a Christian was left in no doubt whatsoever that it really was their god telling them to kill the child next door, they would obey.

The only judicial code the Bible god has is "Might Makes Right".  Whatever he says goes. if he decided that it was a sin to sleep with people of the opposite sex, you'd all be seeking same-sex partners.  Or are you going to say that's impossible because you can't help the way you're hardwired?

What would I do if a human agency told me to kill the child next door?

I'd refuse because I don't get my morality from an unproveable supreme cosmic mega-being.

[floo]

How many people on this forum would attempt to sacrifice their child because they believed their god was telling them to do so?

[jakswan]

Did anyone watch 'The Secret' based on a true story good example that religion can be used to justify anything.

[Brownie]

I did watch it and found it chilling in the extreme.  I also felt sorry for the children of the two murderers, having to see their parents with lots of personal stuff portrayed in drama.  Nevertheless it was a very good drama.

I do not believe for one minute that that man, Colin, really believes all the religious stuff he spouts.  He's a psychopath.  He talks the talk to try and justify what he did (no doubt he still does in prison), he brainwashed Hazel, and he gave out an aura of respectability.  However there is nothing respectable in anyone's book about committing a carefully planned double murder and he and Hazel might have got away with it. I mean, "Putting them out of their misery", give me strength!   If that isn't blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, I don't know what is.   He is an arrogant man and has no doubt found a way to quite enjoy his prison sentence, manipulating other inmates;  one would hope, not the staff.

It was a good insight into how 'religious' society is in Northern Ireland compared to us.  James Nesbitt hails from NI and remembered how the scandal rocked Coleraine when it all came out.

Had the pair not hailed from and lived in Northern Ireland but over here, the man would have found something other than religion to give him a respectable air and a different justifications for his actions.

[ippy]

You are ignorant of what the speck in your eye is. Go away and learn the teaching.


So you would kill all the adults and leave the babies to die a slow agonising death or for animals to kill?

You need to wake up to yourself... Do you think no babies killed in any war by Man.
Didn't they kill the babies themselves? Didn't mankind have not care for their children. Didn't they sacrifice their Children to Molech

Leviticus 18:21
Verse Concepts
'You shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God; I am the LORD.

God destroyed the nations who were already teaching to offer their children as sacrifices to idols/false Gods.
The truth is God hated such things and he destroyed completely those nations so they could not lead the Israelites astray.
In the parts of the bible, the parts where Nations are destroyed or even Pharaoh and his armies it is all about Nations who kill children and even mistreat others.

God actually was putting an end to such things by destroying Nations who did this.
He was just and allowed no nation who harmed their children or could harm the children of other nations to exist.

God told the Israelites that there was to be no child burnt offerings etc.
But the evil was such that they did it. Googled these for you.
Read through them... God hates child sacrifices. By destroying nations and their descendants he put an end to it.







As you can see witchcraft and Paganism were the original cause of Children being sacrificed to false Gods.
God put an end to those nations and punished the Israelites if they failed to obey his rules about their children.
Now go away and stop bringing up something you have no understanding about. God hates the killing of Children and killed those who did it, and their descendants so they could not do it again.


The truth has shown how you are the one in denial.

The book shows that God does not want the things man makes up for himself.
It was man who decided to sacrifice his Children.
Abraham showed a faith that knew God could bring his Son back from the dead.
The same Faith of Abraham that saw Christs coming. It also shows that God did not want and does not want the children or people of others sacrificed to him. Would you promise God to sacrifice a person to him?
Mans nature is the evil part...


Jephtah’s daughter


Having been told they must not make human sacrifices what does Jephtah do?

He promises to sacrifice the first thing that greets him. Prepared to kill another person then his only daughter is the first.

He tells her and she agrees to fulfill the promise. A promise wrongly made doing that which God does not want.
But he is taught a life lesson he will never forget.
A lesson to us all that God does not want us to make sacrifices of humans.

Now you know that the truth is these people who were destroyed along with their descendants were about ridding the world of such evil things as sacrificing their children. These people were not civilised they had no police stations and no one to stop them killing their children. It is that part of it's history modern paganism has left behind. They made blood sacrifices of their children and people.  So the truth is God destroyed in mankind that which was not good. He killed off those who killed their children and the Children as they would have only carried on the same practice.

Now the truth is out you can shut up! Because you were wrong all along. God killed those who killed their children and their children to stop more being killed.

Blimey Sass!

ippy

[Khatru]

Seeing as I have your attention, Sass, care to answer this question which you ran away from....

I didn't say "when" your god tells you to do this, I said "if".

You're putting limits on what your god can/can't do and I thought you believers say there is nothing he can't do.

Remember, it's "if" and not "when"

Now, please try again.  Picture the scene......

You wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of a heavenly fanfare and standing before you in a blaze of glory is your God.

"You have been a good and trusty servant to Me" says Yaweh; "Now I have a special task for you"

"The unbeliever next door has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and My righteous wrath has risen.  For his punishment I command you to kill his child"

"Do this in My name and the heavens will forever sing to My glory"

Do you obey your god?

Yes or no?

[Hope]

Seeing as I have your attention, Sass, care to answer this question which you ran away from....

Khatru, the problem with your insistence that people answer the question is that you don't like the answers people have given you.  Let's take another example.  I have no idea whether you have any children, but let's say your father told you to kill on of your own children.  Would you?  I doubt it.  Would you simply refuse to do it, or would you be looking into why it appeared that he had?  Had you misunderstood him?  Had he had a mental aberration?  Had he been looking to see what your reaction would be?  Would you, in other words, have tested the instruction to see whether it was something that you father would even ask in the first place?

[Hope]

You have to admit though that he has a past record of ordering people to be killed. So some sort of call might come.

Interestingly enough, the context of Khat's hypothetical scenario is very, very different to any scenario that the Bible records.  That is why the likelihood of any such instruction is - in my view - nil.

Tell someone that I had had that experience. My wife, a friend, GP, the police (if an actual person told me to harm someone else). I should imagine that I would find it disturbing.

I suspect that anyone would, and would therefore think about where the idea had come from.  I doubt many would simply dismiss it; they'd want to find out the sourse.  Had it come from their own imagination? Had it come as a result of material they had been reading or watching?  Had it been triggered by a comment someone else had said at some point?  ....?  ...?

[Khatru]

Khatru, the problem with your insistence that people answer the question is that you don't like the answers people have given you.  Let's take another example.  I have no idea whether you have any children, but let's say your father told you to kill on of your own children.  Would you?  I doubt it.  Would you simply refuse to do it, or would you be looking into why it appeared that he had?  Had you misunderstood him?  Had he had a mental aberration?  Had he been looking to see what your reaction would be?  Would you, in other words, have tested the instruction to see whether it was something that you father would even ask in the first place?

Sorry, Hope

As of yet I haven't actually had an answer, just body swerves and avoidance.

I can also tell you that if my father told me to kill one of my children I would refuse.

Yes, I would question his sanity but I would never have tested the instruction because that amounts to child abuse.

So, my answer is categorically, no!

What about your answer, Hope?

If your god instructed you to kill a child, would you obey?

[Shaker]

Sorry, Hope

As of yet I haven't actually had an answer, just body swerves and avoidance.

Think yourself lucky, sunshine.

It's usually body swerves, avoidance and any one of any number of logical fallacies with this one.

[Owlswing]

Sorry, Hope

As of yet I haven't actually had an answer, just body swerves and avoidance.

I can also tell you that if my father told me to kill one of my children I would refuse.

Yes, I would question his sanity but I would never have tested the instruction because that amounts to child abuse.

So, my answer is categorically, no!

What about your answer, Hope?

If your god instructed you to kill a child, would you obey?

As he demanded that Abraham kill, sacrifice, his son?

[Khatru]

Interestingly enough, the context of Khat's hypothetical scenario is very, very different to any scenario that the Bible records.  That is why the likelihood of any such instruction is - in my view - nil.
I suspect that anyone would, and would therefore think about where the idea had come from.  I doubt many would simply dismiss it; they'd want to find out the sourse.  Had it come from their own imagination? Had it come as a result of material they had been reading or watching?  Had it been triggered by a comment someone else had said at some point?  ....?  ...?

Sorry, Hope - you're missing the point.

Forget about the way I worded that scenario.

Let's just say that your god was standing before you and, like Abraham, you were in no doubt that it was your god.

What if your god ordered you to kill the child?

Would you refuse?

[Owlswing]

Sorry, Hope - you're missing the point.

Forget about the way I worded that scenario.

Let's just say that your god was standing before you and, like Abraham, you were in no doubt that it was your god.

What if your god ordered you to kill the child?

Would you refuse?

If the answer be "No" then he is a pathetic excuse for a parent

If it be "Yes" then he is a pathetic excuse for a Christian.

Win-win situation from my viewpoint!

[Sassy]

No I am most definitely not saying that and if you took the time to actually read my reply then you would clearly see that.

Here it is here.



Yours was not really a sensible reply, was it Sassy?

Would you care to try again?
[/quote]



The original post shows I succeeded you are the one lacking and being dishonest in your cherry picking and twisting of the contents..

Quote from: Sebastian Toe on May 26, 2016, 09:21:14 AM

If it worked out well then there will have been no child sacrifices in the world, ever, since that event?

Is that the case?

Why do you think Pagans have tried to separate themselves from their history?
ARE YOU everywhere in the world and does every religion in the world sacrifice their children to pagan Gods?
Christians do not offer their children as sacrifices. Jews do not offer their children as sacrifices.
Are you saying that religions throughout the world ALL offer their children as Sacrifices?

Not really a sensible answer, was it ST?

Christ gave up his life for mankind. You might give up your life to save your brother.
But no one takes it, if you have a choice and freely give it.
God tells us the greatest love we can have for another is to give our lives for them.
No take their lives away from them.

Life is precious to God. We will one day all give an account. He has tried to save us before that time by sending his Son.
A Son who made it clear he gave up his life willingly a life given for you and I.

I believe God shows us our Children are meant to be a blessing. But some children rebel against their parents and God.
Those selfish and full of pride who believe only in themselves and their own ways.
Everyone at fault but the real culprit themselves.  God is good and he loves us, wanted us to know the true way.

Love is Gods answer and he had to teach us his way. The true way of truth and goodness.
Being just he has revealed that when we break the law there is a penalty.
God provides a way for that price to be paid if we only accept it.

Now we see your ignorance and deliberately avoiding the rest of the post shows you were being less than honest in your reply.
You just cannot accept when you are wrong.

[floo]

Oh the irony!

[Sassy]

It seems longer than that since TW last posted, maybe he has left us.  Of course I remember him and have had an exchange with him, iirc.  He did say some explosive things but I cannot remember him saying precisely what you suggest though I'm not saying he didn't.

You can't compare him to Sassy, they are not at all alike.  Whatever you think of her and her posts (& I don't think it is quite the thing to do, to bring up fellow posters' names unless you have something good to say), she wouldn't relish the idea of anyone 'going to Hell'.

Brownie,.

Floo, is knowingly being less than truthful on purpose.
People just stop reading her posts after a while. You are stating the obvious and she knows you are right.
As for TW he has said he would be away in one of his posts for a little while. Not sure if holiday or just a rest.
Hope it is a holiday.

[jeremyp]

Would you, in other words, have tested the instruction to see whether it was something that you father would even ask in the first place?

I wouldn't test it by going along with it.

[Brownie]

Quote from: Floo on May 27, 2016, 12:35:05 PM
How many people on this forum would attempt to sacrifice their child because they believed their god was telling them to do so?

No, I would be seriously worried about being psychotic.  What a frightening thought!

I found the following exegesis which gives an interpretation of why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.  It doesn't sit well with me but does go some way to explain it, from a Judeo/Christian pov.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/abe_isaac.html
Modify message

[Khatru]

If the answer be "No" then he is a pathetic excuse for a parent

If it be "Yes" then he is a pathetic excuse for a Christian.

Win-win situation from my viewpoint!

This question never fails to cause believers immense problems hence their repeated failure to even try to answer it.

I refer to an earlier post of mine....

It's a simple enough question but it seems to cause you problems.

What is it with believers and their reluctance to answer questions?

Unlike the believers, I think most unbelievers will always try to answer a question posed by another person, regardless of the question, or indeed, who is posing it.

Will we always answer it to complete satisfaction?

Sometimes we will, sometimes not at all and sometimes never.  However, as a believer, I for one really dislike walking away from a question without at least trying to answer it.  Seems that this is a personal standard shared by many unbelievers and not-so-many believers.  It's a good quality.

Sure, we can be seen as arrogant at times; even forceful in our pursuit of accountability.  Unlike believers, we  have no problem being scrutinised and we are also able to elucidate in a way that can be understood by anyone willing to apply the same effort at understanding that we place ourselves out there to be scrutinised.

What I notice with theists is they like to jut the chin out and challenge.  However, try asking them a question that requires them to inspect what they think and you'll find they will try to shift the point of discussion to some sort of "only I can understand it" slant.

So, it's rare you run across an atheist that won't put themselves up to be picked apart or explain why they think as they do.

If it can be understood by one, it can by all, no desire or faith required.