Author Topic: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...  (Read 30888 times)

Sassy

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #75 on: June 01, 2016, 09:26:52 AM »
IIRC he most certainly has.

Actually I agree with you on this one. However, her desire to protect certain believers (regardless of their views, and even though they might contradict her views) means she comes across as completely unable to condemn such views if they are expressed by a Christian.

Not strictly true is it?

If, I have made it clear what I believe and they are different to that of another believer, then I have by that reasoning said that I do not agree. To condemn would be to suggest that there is something unwholesome about the view as if against Christ or God. The Sadducee and Pharisee existed with different beliefs along side each other because they knew Christ would bring the final truth of which belief is right.

Christianity is about Christ being the Son of God and the Messiah. The truth written in the OT being revealed and the final outcome of people being saved by God through the final covenant with all peoples.

I am going to ask you what is so frightening about the thought of hell that you believe TW is doing something wrong if he says people will go there?

Christ said:

Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


From that, I take hell to be a place where you go because you saw someone suffering and had the means to help them and did nothing.

If a man came like lazarus every day and sat near you would you give him food and clothing and help him?

I believe that books will be opened up and all judged. I cannot predict who or what will happen. I can only predict those who know Christ and do as he has told us will not be judged but has passed from judgement.

In the OT the Jews believed anyone who did what God said to be right was acceptable to God.

Lke the two sons asked to do something by their Father...


28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


You see sometimes we can love God simply by obeying him whether intentional or not.

Dives ignored the needs of his fellow man.

We see in our country the government turning man against man. Painting the poor and needy as lazy.
Do you believe being poor in this country is really about being lazy?

The way we think and allow others to influence our thoughts is something which we need to be aware about.
Often, when giving to the homeless or buying big issues someone whose company I am in will say they have more money
than you don't encourage them. But if they had more why be sat dirty in the street and need a dog for protection if they did have money?

Sometimes not everything is what it appears. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for everyone's sins. Even the person before me at the point. I give because I care and often wish I could re-house and give them all a better way of life.
You probably do and feel the same, people do not go to hell who actually care. Because written in the books are always the truth. You may refuse to believe in God and what he tells you but some atheists can act as if in obedience to GOD by giving to those in need.

Even Jesus makes it plain.

King James Bible
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.


Heartfelt care for others is something we can all show. :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #76 on: June 01, 2016, 09:33:28 AM »
They would have to be pretty powerfull to make Sass think, just for starters, but those luminous O's, would need some kind of power boost and I bet Sass doesn't believe in the Mysterons, I know it's difficult to believe but there's still some people that don't believe in them.

ippy

Indestructible Captain Scarlet....
My God is like that and in believers too... indestructible and yet fighting the forces of evil in an attempt to save our souls.
I guess I believe in the power of good over evil and see the force of God in believers overcoming that which is evil in mankind.

You can see the good and bad power struggle in the Mysterons from Mars and Captain Scarlet fighting to keep earth safe from them.
In our world it is saving men from the forces of evil and Satan the main instigator of all that man suffers.

How odd you think about the such programs and yet fail to see the reality of evil and Gods good nature in the world. :)
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2016, 09:44:37 AM »
Famous quote attributed to Aquinas, who is not a member of this forum: 'In order that nothing may be wanting to the felicity of the blessed spirits in Heaven, a perfect view is granted to them of the tortures of the damned.'

I guess you are saying the judgment has happened and there are tortured souls in hell.

Well perhaps the quote is wrongly attributed in that it refers to the Dives and Lazarus approach by Christ explaining why one is suffering the things he allowed another human to suffer in life.

Who would want to see someone tortured? Don't Christians preach Christ crucified and risen for forgiveness?
Doesn't he tell us God loves all the world and wants everyone saved?
Is it really so hard or difficult to love your neighbour? Is it hard to see that the basic teaching is do no harm?

Christ tells us that:



King James Bible
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.



I believe that it means they will regret their actions and hatred toward you as an enemy,.
Having given bad to receive good. You would definitely think twice about the way you look at that person and even change your mind about how they gave good for your bad..

God tells us not to take vengeance. I believe that it is in repaying good for bad we can stop the nature of evil.

Turning the other cheek and yet even more giving what is not earned of deserved as God did with us.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Khatru

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2016, 09:50:04 AM »
Quote from: Floo on May 27, 2016, 12:35:05 PM
How many people on this forum would attempt to sacrifice their child because they believed their god was telling them to do so?

No, I would be seriously worried about being psychotic.  What a frightening thought!

I found the following exegesis which gives an interpretation of why Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.  It doesn't sit well with me but does go some way to explain it, from a Judeo/Christian pov.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/abe_isaac.html
Modify message

I've had a look at your link and I see problems....

Quote
God was not tempting Abraham. God was not enticing Abraham to do wrong, but was testing him to see if he would do what was right.

What's this? The Bible god, of whom we are told knows absolutely everything there is to know, was unaware whether Abraham would do right or wrong?  God who can read all our hearts (1 Chronicles 28:9) didn't know whether Abe was devoted to him until he was ready and willing to murder Isaac by way of human sacrifice?

Sounds like yet another of many contradictions found throughout the Bible

Quote
God was not instituting or condoning child sacrifice. As seen in Deuteronomy 12:31 and the other passages above, God abhors child sacrifice. It's important to remember that God prevented the sacrifice from actually occurring. He did not desire the sacrifice as an act of worship or for any other reason beyond testing Abraham.


The disgusting thing here is that Abe was quite ready to sacrifice Isaac and would have gone ahead with it if God hadn't stopped him.  Yet the Bible says that Abe was righteous?  A guy who was going to sacrifice his child?  Why is this different from the followers of Moloch and Baal who sacrificed their children?  In those cases, God called it a sin but when he told Abraham to do the very same thing, everything was alright and because Abe was going to go ahead with the sacrifice it made him a righteous man?

This writer of the article justifies this atrocious tale of contradiction and child abuse by saying that whatever God says goes, in other words "might makes right".  I guess the writer wants us to obey the orders of authority without question, no matter how unreasonable and immoral those orders might be.

This terrible state of affairs is no doubt seen by many believers as an example of transcendent love but only after they've disabled their own conscience and allowed an external agency the privilege of assuming that role for them.   They accept as moral whatever they are told God thinks is moral.  How ripe they are for exploitation!

It's sad but they probably can't see how they might be a danger to their neighbours with an attitude like that.
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

Dorothy Parker

floo

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2016, 10:41:11 AM »
How anyone can condone the action of Abraham is beyond me. I have heard it argued Abraham knew god would call a halt at the last minute! What about Isaac in all this, he must have been scared witless? How could anyone have a good relationship with a parent who was prepared to use them as a human sacrifice?

Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2016, 01:31:05 PM »
Dearie Me,

Abraham and Issac, it's a bloody Myth, a story with a truth in it, you don't sacrifice children, maybe a small god would ask you to sacrifice a child, but God would not, why would a God who can look into your very heart need to test you, bloody stupid, get over it Christians there are a lot of Myths in your Bible.

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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #81 on: June 01, 2016, 01:33:59 PM »
Dearie Me,

Abraham and Issac, it's a bloody Myth, a story with a truth in it, you don't sacrifice children, maybe a small god would ask you to sacrifice a child, but God would not, why would a God who can look into your very heart need to test you, bloody stupid, get over it Christians there are a lot of Myths in your Bible.

Gonnagle.

so when you do not like the message, just say myth. If you happen to like the message, then it's the word of god.

Very slippery.

I bet the flood was a myth and no one died? (well I know it is really a myth, but some Christians think it really happened)
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Shaker

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #82 on: June 01, 2016, 01:39:19 PM »
so when you do not like the message, just say myth. If you happen to like the message, then it's the word of god.

Very slippery.
Not many of them go the full porker and say the same of the resurrection, though  ;)
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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #83 on: June 01, 2016, 01:40:33 PM »
Not many of them go the full porker and say the same of the resurrection, though  ;)

That was to be my next question.

If some of it is myth why not all of it, and how can you tell?
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Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #84 on: June 01, 2016, 01:48:26 PM »
Dear Berational,

Quote
so when you do not like the message, just say myth. If you happen to like the message, then it's the word of god.

No, you question what is happening, you ask the why, where, what, who, when.

Dear Shaker,

The Resurrection, yes there are many who hang their coat on this, not me, it is the whole overarching message of the Gospels, the whole story, not just one bit.

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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #85 on: June 01, 2016, 01:50:00 PM »
Dear Berational,

No, you question what is happening, you ask the why, where, what, who, when.

Dear Shaker,

The Resurrection, yes there are many who hang their coat on this, not me, it is the whole overarching message of the Gospels, the whole story, not just one bit.

Gonnagle.

Those questions do not ensure everyone will come the same conclusion.

Is god a myth?

Your questions confirm what I said. If YOU like it you might say it is the word of god, if you don't it's myth.

This is cherry picking.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #86 on: June 01, 2016, 02:14:09 PM »
Dear Berational,

Quote
Those questions do not ensure everyone will come the same conclusion.

Course not, we are all different, all human, all open to human failing.

Quote
Is god a myth?

Find out what a Myth is, no not the Oxford English, and then we might discuss "is God a Myth".

Quote
This is cherry picking.

What!! Like your constant mention of Slavery, I don't think I am the only Cherry Picker around these parts.

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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #87 on: June 01, 2016, 02:33:24 PM »
Dear Berational,

Course not, we are all different, all human, all open to human failing.

Find out what a Myth is, no not the Oxford English, and then we might discuss "is God a Myth".

What!! Like your constant mention of Slavery, I don't think I am the only Cherry Picker around these parts.

Gonnagle.

I am not cherry picking you are!

I point out nits of the bible to demonstrate that it is NOT a good book, or a book that can advise us today about morality. Unless of course you agree with slavery and mass murder?

You cherry pick, as you think this is inspired by some god, and you think some parts are due to this god, and some not.

I on the other hand just propose that it is all written by humans, and as such is perfectly consistent with human behaviour and morality at the time.

You have the problem of ALL the bad stuff in the bible, as you think this book is inspired by an all powerful, all knowing god.

The bible to me, looks just as I would expect it to if just written by people of the time. Some good, some bad, some terrible.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #88 on: June 01, 2016, 02:41:18 PM »
Dear Berational,

Sorry mate, you really have me mixed up with some other poster, or, OR, and maybe the more probable, you have taken all you have against Christianity and heaped it on me, tarring me with the same brush, tut tut!!

Quote
I on the other hand just propose that it is all written by humans, and as such is perfectly consistent with human behaviour and morality at the time.

See, sometime we agree ;)
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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #89 on: June 01, 2016, 02:45:40 PM »
Dear Berational,

Sorry mate, you really have me mixed up with some other poster, or, OR, and maybe the more probable, you have taken all you have against Christianity and heaped it on me, tarring me with the same brush, tut tut!!

See, sometime we agree ;)
Gonnagle.

That would be true if you do NOT use the bible as a source of the word of some god.

If you do not think there is any truth about a god in there, then I was wrong.
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Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #90 on: June 01, 2016, 02:57:28 PM »
Dear Berational,

I use the Bible, more importantly I use the Gospels to think about God, what God wants for me and his children, but that is not my only reference, science, philosophy, other religions, oh and more educated people who have studied science, philosophy and other religions.

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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #91 on: June 01, 2016, 03:13:41 PM »
Dear Berational,

I use the Bible, more importantly I use the Gospels to think about God, what God wants for me and his children, but that is not my only reference, science, philosophy, other religions, oh and more educated people who have studied science, philosophy and other religions.

Gonnagle.

Do you find ANYTHING in the bible that you would attribute to a god?

Also, you cannot use science to find god, as science says nothing about god. What is really happening is your misattribution of something sciency that sounds nice or deep, and think that must be god at work.
It's dishonest, as the scientists behind the science, would never make that claim.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 03:16:52 PM by BeRational »
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Brownie

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #92 on: June 01, 2016, 03:23:26 PM »
Quote from: [b
Gonnagle Gi\\[/b]link=topic=12121.msg617046#msg617046 date=1464784265]
Dearie Me,

Abraham and Issac, it's a bloody Myth, a story with a truth in it, you don't sacrifice children, maybe a small god would ask you to sacrifice a child, but God would not, why would a God who can look into your very heart need to test you, bloody stupid, get over it Christians there are a lot of Myths in your Bible.

Gonnagle.[quote/]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brownie:
Most of us realise that Gonners.  I was taught that the Bible can be divided into three documents, a historical document, a mythological document and a something else (I firgit) document**.  I left that behind for a long time and then came back to it without being conscious that it was an established teaching, one taught to me when I was at school.   It's not cherry picking if you accept the categorisation of the Biblical documents.  There is some crossover of course but I wouldn't take something from 'Wisdom Literature' and say  it belonged in the 'Myth' bit, that would be cherry picking and confusing.

However, that church teaching which I find easy to go along with, and others, however well established,  are the opinions of men who lived many years ago.  Inspirational but ripe for scrutiny and challenge.  I do believe that faith evolves and that we gain new insights as time goes on, so certain emphases shift.
I'll shirrup now :-).

My post has got caught up in the quote box. I've tried to release it but my efforts were in vain.

**Wisdom Literature!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 03:39:21 PM by Brownie »
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #93 on: June 01, 2016, 03:54:03 PM »


I on the other hand just propose that it is all written by humans, and as such is perfectly consistent with human behaviour and morality at the time.

You have the problem of ALL the bad stuff in the bible, as you think this book is inspired by an all powerful, all knowing god.

The bible to me, looks just as I would expect it to if just written by people of the time. Some good, some bad, some terrible.

Your first proposition is of course the most reasonable explanation of what was going on with these writings. And of course the accounts of the behaviour of 'God' differ quite a bit, even in the OT, because there were very different personalities writing the various accounts (though some non-Christian posters like to imply that the whole lot suggests a violent, psychopathic god, which is just the obverse of the fundamentalist view).

I don't think Gonners adopts the fundamentalist view that you've ascribed to him, though - in fact, since I know he's a fan of Karen Armstrong, I'm bloody sure you're misrepresenting him.

God changes throughout the Bible, according to humans' changing perception of what he's supposed to be like. I suppose the liberal believers have to make their bet on which accounts of 'God's' attributes more accurately reflect the reality. If they go with the view that 'God' is all loving and forgiving, then they have to edit out the nasty bits.
Of course, there is just the possibility (which Thomas Hardy toyed with), that the reality is that God is a monster, and all the nasty bits are true, and that all the nice loving bits are just camouflage, a nice bait on the hook of a sadist, part of whose satisfaction comes from duping people before he tortures them.

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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #94 on: June 01, 2016, 03:58:18 PM »
Your first proposition is of course the most reasonable explanation of what was going on with these writings. And of course the accounts of the behaviour of 'God' differ quite a bit, even in the OT, because there were very different personalities writing the various accounts (though some non-Christian posters like to imply that the whole lot suggests a violent, psychopathic god, which is just the obverse of the fundamentalist view).

I don't think Gonners adopts the fundamentalist view that you've ascribed to him, though - in fact, since I know he's a fan of Karen Armstrong, I'm bloody sure you're misrepresenting him.

God changes throughout the Bible, according to humans' changing perception of what he's supposed to be like. I suppose the liberal believers have to make their bet on which accounts of 'God's' attributes more accurately reflect the reality. If they go with the view that 'God' is all loving and forgiving, then they have to edit out the nasty bits.
Of course, there is just the possibility (which Thomas Hardy toyed with), that the reality is that God is a monster, and all the nasty bits are true, and that all the nice loving bits are just camouflage, a nice bait on the hook of a sadist, part of whose satisfaction comes from duping people before he tortures them.

I'm certainly not saying he adopts the fundamentalist view at all.
What I am saying is that he cherry picks stuff from the bible to suit his preferred option of a god. He does this though, with no method other than what feels right.
This is the point, lots of people read the bible, and have very different views. If it was the word of god, then it should all be true, or at least there should be some method that could be used to test a verse to see if it was the word of god, or just made up stuff.

This method is never produced, because it does not exist, and it's all down to personal interpretation, and this is the problem.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #95 on: June 01, 2016, 04:05:24 PM »

This is the point, lots of people read the bible, and have very different views. If it was the word of god, then it should all be true, or at least there should be some method that could be used to test a verse to see if it was the word of god, or just made up stuff.

This method is never produced, because it does not exist, and it's all down to personal interpretation, and this is the problem.

Some Christians (of whom I think Gonners is one) think the Bible should be considered as "words about God", rather than the whole lot having been as it were dictated inerrantly by the Holy Spirit.
I admit that this certainly raises questions about the supposed omniscience and omnipotence of God - for if he cannot work out some kind of accurate means of transmitting his message and purposes, but has to rely on the muddled and inaccurate perceptions of humans, then he doesn't really seem much of a God at all. "Kill all the young boys and girls" (Numbers 31) doesn't really square up with "Thou shalt not kill", does it?
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BeRational

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #96 on: June 01, 2016, 04:11:12 PM »
Some Christians (of whom I think Gonners is one) think the Bible should be considered as "words about God", rather than the whole lot having been as it were dictated inerrantly by the Holy Spirit.
I admit that this certainly raises questions about the supposed omniscience and omnipotence of God - for if he cannot work out some kind of accurate means of transmitting his message and purposes, but has to rely on the muddled and inaccurate perceptions of humans, then he doesn't really seem much of a God at all. "Kill all the young boys and girls" (Numbers 31) doesn't really square up with "Thou shalt not kill", does it?

Exactly.

The only point I want to drive home, is that it is the theists that cherry pick the bible to find a god.

As an atheist I do not need to do that as I do not find the case for a god convincing, and the bible is not a convincing document in my view. So if people think god can be found in the bible, I want to know why they like some but not all, and also claim to NOT cherry pick.
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wigginhall

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2016, 04:19:39 PM »
Some Christians (of whom I think Gonners is one) think the Bible should be considered as "words about God", rather than the whole lot having been as it were dictated inerrantly by the Holy Spirit.
I admit that this certainly raises questions about the supposed omniscience and omnipotence of God - for if he cannot work out some kind of accurate means of transmitting his message and purposes, but has to rely on the muddled and inaccurate perceptions of humans, then he doesn't really seem much of a God at all. "Kill all the young boys and girls" (Numbers 31) doesn't really square up with "Thou shalt not kill", does it?

I think an awful lot of Christians just pay lip-service to omnipotence, well, all the omnis.   Do they really think that God could stop earthquakes or ebola virus?
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Owlswing

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2016, 04:43:23 PM »

I think an awful lot of Christians just pay lip-service to omnipotence, well, all the omnis.   Do they really think that God could stop earthquakes or ebola virus?


YES - they do! They think that God inflicts these abominations upon us sinners as punishment for our failure to obey his laws.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Gonnagle

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Re: Vengeance is mine saith the LORD, and I shall pay back in full...
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2016, 09:26:16 PM »
Dear Brownie,

Quote
However, that church teaching which I find easy to go along with, and others, however well established,  are the opinions of men who lived many years ago.  Inspirational but ripe for scrutiny and challenge.  I do believe that faith evolves and that we gain new insights as time goes on, so certain emphases shift.
I'll shirrup now :-).

No don't shut up, this is something Berational does not take on board, faith evolves, he says it is about personal interpretation, well hell yes!! as we gain new insights, new life experiences, we might look at the Bible in a new light, we grow, we learn, but me and Berational have been down this road umpteen times, he see's the world through atheist eyes, I see it through Christian eyes, correction, I see it through cherry picking Christian eyes, he does not cherry pick but if I had a quid for everytime he mentioned slavery I would have enough for a weekend in Blackpool.

Gonnagle.
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