Is it ethical to buy something if it is produced by others living in poverty?

[Bubbles]

In this case " Shea butter"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36357630

Or by not buying do we just make it worse?

A living is a living?

Or not?

Should we avoid products produced by paying really small sums to people?

[Sassy]

In this case " Shea butter"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36357630

Or by not buying do we just make it worse?

A living is a living?

Or not?

Should we avoid products produced by paying really small sums to people?

Let them die?

We should have  a Government body who imposes a tax on companies who pay little for the main ingredients of their products to the people producing it. Like a minimum wage tax in this country.
Employers who pay less than the minimum wage here get taxed again on their income if found doing so.
So the Governments can find a fair payment for the product and if they do not keep to those payments then tax the company a second tax and ensure that money goes to help those families providing the books etc so they can use the money just for food products and to live.

[Harrowby Hall]

What is going to be achieved by boycotting the product, Rose? As Sass has said - starvation.

Would it not be better to try to ensure the product becomes the subject of fair trade? Contact the manufacturers/distributors of the products concerned and ask why shea butter is not produced under a fair trade agreement.

Have a look at this - page 11:

http://www.fairtrade.net/fileadmin/user_upload/content/2009/about_us/documents/2011_snv-flo_brochure.pdf

[trippymonkey]

Doesn't it also depend on costs of living in these 'other countries'

Nick

[Brownie]

The people involved in producing shea butter, which is currently very popular, need the income from it.  What Sass says above and just to say, 'Fair Trade' also produce shea butter products.

[floo]

I have never heard of shea butter.

[Hope]

In this case " Shea butter"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-36357630

Or by not buying do we just make it worse?

A living is a living?

Or not?

Should we avoid products produced by paying really small sums to people?

I suppose it depends on by whose standards the sum is small.  It also depends more on how those making the stuff are treated.  Are they abused, do they get a good income in the context of their own nation?  All very complicated.

I remember a German group seeking to have Europe ban the import of carpets and other things that had been woven using what they deemed child labour.  Whilst child labour is wrong, some of the manufacturers they were targetting were Tibetan families living in Nepal who sent their children to schoo every day, required them to do their homework at night, and then worked as a family to weave things over the weekends/holidays .  Was this really chid exploitation, which is what the Europeans were really challenging.

[SteveH]

No, though I can't claim to be 100% ethical in my buying - it's quite difficult to be.  I do try, though.

[L.A.]

I can never understand why 'Fair Trade' goods are so expensive, surely if you cut-out all the evil middle-men, there ought to be a fair return for the producer and a highly competitive price for the end user?

Or is there something about 'Fair Trade' that we don't know?

[jeremyp]

I can never understand why 'Fair Trade' goods are so expensive, surely if you cut-out all the evil middle-men, there ought to be a fair return for the producer and a highly competitive price for the end user?

Or is there something about 'Fair Trade' that we don't know?

Who said the middle men are being cut out? The supply chain for fair trade goods is probably pretty much the same as for non fair trade goods.

However, typically, the cost of the ingredients that are "fair trade" are a very small part of the final cost of the product that you buy. For example, the coffee beans in a cup of latté might be only a few pence of what you pay in a coffee shop. Fair trade coffee bought in coffee shops should be, at most, a few p more than normal coffee. The retailers put a larger markup on it because the punters expect fair trade coffee to be more expensive but overestimate how expensive it should be.

[L.A.]

Who said the middle men are being cut out? The supply chain for fair trade goods is probably pretty much the same as for non fair trade goods.

However, typically, the cost of the ingredients that are "fair trade" are a very small part of the final cost of the product that you buy. For example, the coffee beans in a cup of latté might be only a few pence of what you pay in a coffee shop. Fair trade coffee bought in coffee shops should be, at most, a few p more than normal coffee. The retailers put a larger markup on it because the punters expect fair trade coffee to be more expensive but overestimate how expensive it should be.

Yes, so when you look at the production 'costs' of these products (i.e. what the produces get paid) and the end user price, there is one hell of a profit being made by someone, so can anyone really claim to be 'ethical' ?

It seems to me that there is huge potential for squeezing these middle-men so that both producers and end-users win.

[jeremyp]

Yes, so when you look at the production 'costs' of these products (i.e. what the produces get paid) and the end user price, there is one hell of a profit being made by someone, so can anyone really claim to be 'ethical' ?

Err, no. There are a lot of costs excluding the beans. For example, you have to have a shop or stand, you have to pay staff, there are other ingredients, taxes, distribution costs etc etc etc.

It seems to me that there is huge potential for squeezing these middle-men so that both producers and end-users win.

Can you give an example of what you mean by "middle man". I'm thinking of the people who buy coffee off the people who grow it and then distribute it to people who want to buy it. It's a job that has to be done, so why shouldn't they take some money for doing it?

[L.A.]

Err, no. There are a lot of costs excluding the beans. For example, you have to have a shop or stand, you have to pay staff, there are other ingredients, taxes, distribution costs etc etc etc.

Yes of course there are costs, but with the internet there is the potential to give producers much easier access to end users and trade agreements ought to facilitate this process.

Can you give an example of what you mean by "middle man". I'm thinking of the people who buy coffee off the people who grow it and then distribute it to people who want to buy it. It's a job that has to be done, so why shouldn't they take some money for doing it?

It's 'The man from delmonte' effect. Large companies do very much call the tune and that leave the producers in a very weak position.

[jeremyp]

Yes of course there are costs, but with the internet there is the potential to give producers much easier access to end users and trade agreements ought to facilitate this process.

How so? You do understand that fair trade products are physical goods and cannot be distributed over the Internet.

It's 'The man from delmonte' effect. Large companies do very much call the tune and that leave the producers in a very weak position.

Do you understand that Del Monte provides a useful service? That take food from farmers and distribute it to people that want to buy it. The only reason, but the way, that they can call the tune is if there is overproduction of the foods in question. And that's fundamentally the problem with coffee: it's very easy to set up as a coffee farmer, so too many people are doing it.

[L.A.]

How so? You do understand that fair trade products are physical goods and cannot be distributed over the Internet.

That's not really true. Let's imagine a small cooperative of coffee farmers who are currently dependant on large powerful companies for most of their income. With access to the internet the cooperative can start to take control and advertise their product world-wide, building up their own distribution network.  World trade and tariff laws really need to be written to make this kind of thing  easy.

Do you understand that Del Monte provides a useful service? That take food from farmers and distribute it to people that want to buy it. The only reason, but the way, that they can call the tune is if there is overproduction of the foods in question. And that's fundamentally the problem with coffee: it's very easy to set up as a coffee farmer, so too many people are doing it.

Of course they provide a useful service but they are in control and they take the lions share of the profit. As a commodity, there will always be fluctuations in price, that is just a fact of life,.

[jeremyp]

That's not really true.

What'a the browser plugin for getting coffee from South America?

Let's imagine a small cooperative of coffee farmers who are currently dependant on large powerful companies for most of their income. With access to the internet the cooperative can start to take control and advertise their product world-wide, building up their own distribution network.

You can't make a distribution network for coffee out of the Internet, you need lorries and ships and warehouses and coffee roasting and packaging plants.

Of course they provide a useful service but they are in control and they take the lions share of the profit. As a commodity, there will always be fluctuations in price, that is just a fact of life,.

How much profit do they make on their food distribution business?

[Hope]

Should we avoid products produced by paying really small sums to people?

I suppose it depends on one's definition of 'really small sums'.  Is it in terms of the buyer, or the producer?  If the latter, I'd rather avoid them; if its in terms of the buyer, one has then to ask whether that sum is smaller than, the same as or larger than the average income for the producer, and whether it allows them to provide for chidren and families/communities without sacrificing staple food and other requirements.

I've used this example before, but may be not here.  Whilst we were in Nepal, a group of German child labour activists visited the local Tibetan refugee camp to investigate reports that children as young as 8 were being used to make the famed Tibetan rugs that (mostly) tourists purchased.  They 'discovered' that this was the case, and used a number of early internet means to discourage tourists from buying the rugs.  However, they were only there for 2 days, and those happened to be the weekend. 

What they didn't think to do was to discover what happened during the week.  One of the selling points of the rugs was that they were made by individual families rather than in a factory, and part of the money raised from the sale of rugs was used to send the children (up to about 13) to school.  Children and young people were only allowed - by camp elders - to work on the rugs once they had completed their homework - and their evening meal.  It was a means of teaching them a skill that, if nothing else, they could fall back on as adults - and was a time for the family to do stuff together once a day.

[L.A.]

What'a the browser plugin for getting coffee from South America?

You can't make a distribution network for coffee out of the Internet, you need lorries and ships and warehouses and coffee roasting and packaging plants.
How much profit do they make on their food distribution business?

What you need is connections, communications, networks of interested parties - exactly the kinds of things that the internet is very good at providing.  Shifting goods is a fairly straightforward process - and you might as well ask 'how does any internet company make money?'

[jeremyp]

What you need is connections, communications, networks of interested parties - exactly the kinds of things that the internet is very good at providing.

Cn you give an example of a goods distribution network that was crowdsourced on the Internet.

Shifting goods is a fairly straightforward process

But it requires investment in machinery. It requires knowledge of the geography of the area in which the goods are produced and knowledge of customs procedures in the source and destination countries. It requires knowledge of the markets in the destination countries.

If the supply chain was as simple as you suggest, with the Internet, everybody would be doing it.

[L.A.]

Cn you give an example of a goods distribution network that was crowdsourced on the Internet.

I never mentioned 'crowd-sourcing' though I wouldn't rule it out. Ebay of course springs to mind as a versatile sales network, and look around, you will find numerous 'business to business' sites. These kinds of sites spring-up over night when an opportunity arises.

But it requires investment in machinery. It requires knowledge of the geography of the area in which the goods are produced and knowledge of customs procedures in the source and destination countries. It requires knowledge of the markets in the destination countries.

There already exist numerous logistics companies constantly looking for business - finding someone to shift goods is not a problem.

If the supply chain was as simple as you suggest, with the Internet, everybody would be doing it.

This kind of trade is on the increase, people are starting to do it now.


You seem to think that everyone in a 'third world' country is a helpless victim, totally incapable of looking after themselves, when the reality is that once they get the opportunity they can rapidly become very astute businessmen.

[jeremyp]

I never mentioned 'crowd-sourcing' though I wouldn't rule it out. Ebay of course springs to mind as a versatile sales network,

eBay is not a sales network, it is an online market place. eBay gives no help when it comes to getting the goods from one place to another.

Even so, eBay still takes a cut of every transaction that occurs on its site. You want to squeeze these middle men remember.

There already exist numerous logistics companies constantly looking for business - finding someone to shift goods is not a problem.

But these are the famous middle men that you want to squeeze.

This kind of trade is on the increase, people are starting to do it now.

Got any examples of people doing it for fair trade goods?

You seem to think that everyone in a 'third world' country is a helpless victim, totally incapable of looking after themselves

Where have I said that?

when the reality is that once they get the opportunity they can rapidly become very astute businessmen.

Wrong. In many cases they already are astute businessmen and yet the "middle men" still exist. These people provide a useful service and take their cut just like everybody else in the supply chain. If the middle men were not of use, they would already have been cut out, such are the margins with most fair-trade eligible goods.

[Udayana]

Unregulated capitalism will always lead to inequality, exploitation, corruption and, eventually, economic collapse. It has to be carefully managed using legislation and tariffs, to ensure particular outcomes -such as equitable distribution of wealth. 

Surely we know this just from the recent problems between Germany and the southern states - even just within the EU?

[jeremyp]

Unregulated capitalism will always lead to inequality, exploitation, corruption and, eventually, economic collapse. It has to be carefully managed using legislation and tariffs, to ensure particular outcomes -such as equitable distribution of wealth. 

Surely we know this just from the recent problems between Germany and the southern states - even just within the EU?

No we don't. Nobody has ever tried unregulated capitalism.