Happiness

[wigginhall]

Yes, enki, I read the Harris book when it came out, (I mean, 'The Moral Landscape').  One of its flaws surely, is that he assumes that happiness is the starting point, or the end-point of human existence.   This itself is a subjectively chosen goal.  In any case, I think there are many other human goals, e.g. control over others, dominance, power, survival, and so on.   

I recall that Freud cited the pleasure principle, but interestingly, Freud also cited the death instinct, and many people have argued that as well as happiness, we are geared towards darker things.   Certainly, some people want to be unhappy, and some crave destruction. 

I don't see how all of this can be squeezed into objective morality.   


Moderator:

This post, and the 20-odd that follow, were originally in the 'My 'Truth' or 'YOUR 'truth'?' thread in the Christian Topic and have been moved here to create this thread. Since this post, by Wiggenhall, was the earliest of those moved it becomes the OP of this thread.

[Shaker]

I recall that Freud cited the pleasure principle, but interestingly, Freud also cited the death instinct, and many people have argued that as well as happiness, we are geared towards darker things.   Certainly, some people want to be unhappy, and some crave destruction. 

I remember an article in which Adam Philips - an orthodox Freudian - said exactly this: some people just give every appearance of being happy being miserable.

[wigginhall]

I remember an article in which Adam Philips - an orthodox Freudian - said exactly this: some people just give every appearance of being happy being miserable.

Well, the old joke about Northerners is that they love moaning, and there is some truth in it.   But I think you find it everywhere, we used to play a game in therapy groups, called 'ain't it awful', and you had to say it, and then fill in the gap.  Ain't it awful how short girls' skirts have become.   Ha ha ha.

[Shaker]

Found it - thank you, overburdened ol' memory o' mine:

https://goo.gl/ynQaHz

... some people like being unhappy. Indeed for some people their lives can be construed as the pursuit of unhappiness. It is astounding the lengths to which some people will go to be unhappy, to contrive their own misery, as though happiness itself were a phobic object and held terrors. And we don't talk of the right to be unhappy, when we should. Unhappiness can, after all, among many other things, be the registration of injustice or loss. At its best, a culture committed to the pursuit of happiness might be committed, say, to the diminishing of injustice; but at its worst, the culture of happiness may proscribe a whole range of feelings and perceptions.

[wigginhall]

Great quote.   Freud also talked about 'secondary gain' and the need to suffer, in fact, he thought this could be a huge barrier to treatment.   In fact, I remember somebody saying to me, 'please don't take away my depression, it's all I've got'.     

[Rhiannon]

What is happiness, exactly?

[Sebastian Toe]

I remember an article in which Adam Philips - an orthodox Freudian - said exactly this: some people just give every appearance of being happy being miserable.

Sums up our very own Keith? 

[Shaker]

I'll get back to you ...

... in the meantime, Freud defined happiness (or at least, contentment) as "love and work" - a fulfilling relationship coupled with something engaging, meaningful and purposeful to do.

[Shaker]

Sums up our very own Keith? 

Maybe; but then again, not necessarily. Keith does at least come up with links to and quotes of interesting ideas (interesting to him and to me at any rate) that undercut the often automatic not to say facile assumptions that most people make most of the time - that life is the greatest good of all goods, that existence is a net benefit, that happiness is the supreme goal of life, and so forth. I see Phillips doing much the same when he talks about a person's right to unhappiness as a conversation that we should be having - a viewpoint which is unusual, little heard, deeply counterintuitive to many and not at all self-evidently wrong.

[wigginhall]

I think people have the right to be miserable, of course they do.   Who would want some busybody telling them that they 'should' not be?   I don't know how this fits in with Harris's theory of morality, since you have to build this in, presumably.   

Most people have miserable periods, don't they?   They are probably essential, actually. 

[Rhiannon]

Oh, absolutely. There's nothing worse than not being allowed to feel what you feel. 'Cheer up, it might never happen.' 'There's plenty worse off than you.' Its rejection pure and simple. Well you know what, if you can't accept that I feel what I feel then fuck off.

[Shaker]

Having read the article again for the first time in yonks I do like Phillips's idea that unhappiness is a justified registration of protest at injustice or loss - echoes of the anti-psychiatry movement's view of insanity as a (perhaps the only) justified reaction to an intolerable situation.

[Rhiannon]

I think we can probably know what we mean by 'miserable' and 'unhappy'. But what's 'happiness'? That I find far harder to picture.

[wigginhall]

Having read the article again for the first time in yonks I do like Phillips's idea that unhappiness is a justified registration of protest at injustice or loss - echoes of the anti-psychiatry movement's view of insanity as a (perhaps the only) justified reaction to an intolerable situation.

Yes, good old Ronnie Laing.  He went a bit overboard, but had some brilliant ideas.   The idea that society is crazy, and also, that your family may be crazy, and you are protesting, are important ideas.

Actually, again, give Freud his due, he argued that Viennese bourgeois women went crazy in sexless marriages, and he said that they either became depressed, or got a lover!

[Shaker]

I think we can probably know what we mean by 'miserable' and 'unhappy'. But what's 'happiness'? That I find far harder to picture.

I'm working on a few ideas, be patient

[wigginhall]

Lots of sex.   Well, with somebody nice.

[Shaker]

Lots of sex.   Well, with somebody nice.

... when possible

[Rhiannon]

Well this is it, isn't it? What's pleasure and what's happiness? Is happiness just lots of pleasurable moments? I'm not sure it is.

[wigginhall]

... when possible

You must know the Woody Allen joke.  Good sex is brilliant, but bad sex is pretty good too.   

[Shaker]

Well this is it, isn't it? What's pleasure and what's happiness? Is happiness just lots of pleasurable moments? I'm not sure it is.

Shaker, he say: pleasure is to happiness as weather is to climate.

In other words, weather is what's happening now when you look out of the kitchen window - a temporary, transient state, i.e. a good lunch, a bottle of wine, a new car bring pleasure rather than happiness. Happiness, like climate, implies a more settled, long-term state.

Pleasure is emotional weather; happiness, climate.

[Shaker]

You must know the Woody Allen joke.  Good sex is brilliant, but bad sex is pretty good too.

Exactly what I had in mind, wiggles

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

You must know the Woody Allen joke.  Good sex is brilliant, but bad sex is pretty good too.

And this one: sex between two people is a wonderful thing...

...provided you get between the right two people ; - )

[Rhiannon]

Shaker, he say: pleasure is to happiness as weather is to climate.

In other words, weather is what's happening now when you look out of the kitchen window - a temporary, transient state, i.e. a good lunch, a bottle of wine, a new car bring pleasure rather than happiness. Happiness, like climate, implies a more settled, long-term state.

Pleasure is emotional weather; happiness, climate.

Yes, and I think we often seek pleasure when the climate isn't to our liking or feels out of kilter in some way.

[bluehillside Retd.]

And WA on masturbation: Don't knock it; it's sex with someone I love!

[ekim]

What is it, exactly?

Satisfying the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain, perhaps?  'Happiness', derived from  the great Goddess 'Hap', the goddess of chance.  If she smiles upon you and you win the lottery it opens up the imagination to all kinds of satisfactory pleasures.  If she turns her back on you, you suffer a mis-hap.