Author Topic: Why bother ringing 911?  (Read 53532 times)

Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2016, 01:03:54 PM »
You referred to an 'event': I suppose reaching an opinion regarding something being right or wrong would be an event of thinking, but since this involves neural activity in brains then this would be natural.
Natural and naturalistic are different words with different meanings, Gordon.
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Maeght

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2016, 01:13:57 PM »
Whilst I don't believe that God is a creation of the human mind, if a believer does something in the name of God, that suggests God has.

No it doesn't at all.

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After all, we get God (and gods) being at least in part blamed when people commit atrocities.

Where?

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Well, I've referred to the issue of right and wrong.

Which can be explained by neural activity, social norms, empathy and so on. Basically a product of brain activity - so a naturalistic explanation.

Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2016, 01:24:11 PM »
Natural and naturalistic are different words with different meanings, Gordon.

If I were to change the last word of my post to naturalistic it would make no substantive difference to the point I was making. In reply to Maeght's comment
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I don't know of any where there is no possible naturalistic explanation
you replied
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Well, I've referred to the issue of right and wrong

My point was that right and wrong are human judgments made via thinking, which is done in brains, naturally. Therefore, my query is in what way is right and wrong non-naturalistic, which seems to be what you are suggesting?   

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2016, 01:40:48 PM »
He often does act through people
Why doesn't he act through rapists to make them not commit rape?
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2016, 08:53:45 PM »

Why doesn't he act through rapists to make them not commit rape?


Because, on top of everything else he is, he is also a misogynist?
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Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 08:42:12 AM »
Because, on top of everything else he is, he is also a misogynist?
So, you suggest that someone who, according to the Creation story, makes women equal with men - in fact states that there is no male or female in his eyes, is misogynist?  You suggest that the epistle writer, often referred to as a misogynist, who gives advice to both men and women - yet is harder on men when expressing his strong views on how men should treat women than he is the other way round and has even been hailed as the first feminist writer by some modern feminists, is a misogynist?

Something tells me that you need to study the dictionary to discover exactly what a misogynist is.
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 10:00:01 AM »
After all, according to Michelle Gregg, God was protecting her child from the gorilla.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/05/michelle-gregg-cincinnati-zoo-mother-mom-name-gorilla-harambe-facebook-photos-son-petition/

This callous and to be honest, deranged sense of gratitude is wholly lacking in any empathy whatsoever. 

Her imaginary friend had nothing to do with saving her baby while the zookeepers did.

Once more we see how a believer ignores human effort while giving credit to an invisible sky pixie.

Are you making too bigger deal of this?

Who made you the judge of what did and did not happen?

Seems you are just annoyed because in reality you cannot prove God did not keep that child safe whilst the zoo keepers got the gun and made the decision to shoot the animal.

Why does it matter to you? It won't make you right or even help your cause.
Unless you can prove God took not part then I think you have to be HONEST and say you don't know if God helped to protect the child. Given that God has said:-

6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?

7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.


I think the course of action shows that both God and man agree that humans more valuable to God and each other than animals. What only God knows is the truth about whether the animal would eventually have harmed the child fatally.

Surely the important thing is that the child came safely through this and that everyone is free to thank God and the Zoo keepers.
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 10:28:05 AM »
So, you suggest that someone who, according to the Creation story, makes women equal with men - in fact states that there is no male or female in his eyes, is misogynist?  You suggest that the epistle writer, often referred to as a misogynist, who gives advice to both men and women - yet is harder on men when expressing his strong views on how men should treat women than he is the other way round and has even been hailed as the first feminist writer by some modern feminists, is a misogynist?

Something tells me that you need to study the dictionary to discover exactly what a misogynist is.

No, Hope, and there is no hope that you will ever take off the blinkers of your childhood brainwshing and see the bits that are misgynistic - "Let the woman keep silent in church" for one! How long has it taken to get women priests and, even more so, women bishops? The Curse of Eve?

Quote from above (edited for accuracy) - Something tells me that you need to study the (edit) Bible (edit) to discover exactly what a misogynist (edit) your God (edit) is!
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 10:31:10 AM »

Who made you the judge of what did and did not happen?


Who are you to deny us the right to judge the situation and its results according to out own beliefs - religioius or otherwise?
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Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 10:43:36 PM »
Who are you to deny us the right to judge the situation and its results according to out own beliefs - religioius or otherwise?
I think the problem is that some of 'you' seem to judge issues like this without making an attempt to understand what the issue really is, Owly. 
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 11:08:12 PM »
I think the problem is that some of 'you' seem to judge issues like this without making an attempt to understand what the issue really is, Owly.

The issue is that the parents neglected their child long enough for him to get into the gorilla enclosure and then prayed for his safety instead of yelling for help!

You, Hope, need to start to live in the real world instead of the fictional world in which God, your God, will (maybe) fix anything if you ask him nicely and thereby absolve you of any responsibility for your own failures or the results of those failures.
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2016, 12:10:09 AM »
Who are you to deny us the right to judge the situation and its results according to out own beliefs - religioius or otherwise?

Is khatru  inclusive  of all people posting? NO! Therefore my reply to Khatru in no way denies you or anyone else the right to judge anything. However you cannot judge  a situation you did not witness.
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2016, 12:16:35 AM »
The issue is that the parents neglected their child long enough for him to get into the gorilla enclosure and then prayed for his safety instead of yelling for help!

Parents neglected??????

So every parent whose child has a mishap and ends in ER was the victim of neglect by the parents? 

Why are the Zoo not responsible for not ensuring there was no way a child so small could get into of fall into the enclosure?

It is clear you are just against the parents and will accuse them of anything instead of the truth that NO child should have been able to fall into such an enclosure that the rails should have been higher than a person.
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You, Hope, need to start to live in the real world instead of the fictional world in which God, your God, will (maybe) fix anything if you ask him nicely and thereby absolve you of any responsibility for your own failures or the results of those failures.

By the above you mean you want Hope to become a person who thinks as you do in your world? God exists but does he tell you what to do? Does he make you say or do anything you don't want to say or do?  You speak about God and yet you admit you have full control and freedom to do and say what you want, but want God to remove the freedom and control when it comes to you doing anything bad to another? Just how will that work?
Think it through and give some intelligent and logical suggestions.
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2016, 01:02:24 AM »

Is khatru  inclusive  of all people posting? NO! Therefore my reply to Khatru in no way denies you or anyone else the right to judge anything. However you cannot judge  a situation you did not witness.


So you, Sassy, can judge the truth of neither the crucifixion nor the resurrection!
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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2016, 03:42:50 PM »
So, you suggest that someone who, according to the Creation story, makes women equal with men - in fact states that there is no male or female in his eyes, is misogynist?
Why doesn't he stop rapists then?
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2016, 04:11:48 PM »
So you, Sassy, can judge the truth of neither the crucifixion nor the resurrection!

HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER KHATRU IS SPEAKING FOR ALL.
As for the crucifixion and the resurrection it is a truth already in existence and the choice no one else can make for another when it comes to believing it.

Did I really need to spell that out for you?

Your ignorance knows no bounds.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2016, 04:45:36 PM »
HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER KHATRU IS SPEAKING FOR ALL.
As for the crucifixion and the resurrection it is a truth already in existence and the choice no one else can make for another when it comes to believing it.

Did I really need to spell that out for you?

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

Whilst it is conceivable Jesus was crucified as he had made so many enemies, the resurrection story has no credibility to it whatsoever.

Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2016, 08:49:41 PM »
Whilst it is conceivable Jesus was crucified as he had made so many enemies, the resurrection story has no credibility to it whatsoever.
From a purely naturalistic pov, I'd agree, Floo.  However, as I've pointed out several times before, I (and others on this board) don't believe that life is exclusively naturalistic.
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Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2016, 09:03:11 PM »
Why doesn't he act through rapists to make them not commit rape?
You seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, jeremy - as usual.  We are all prone to failings - some on a low-level, such as getting unjustly angry but not violent; others on a higher-level, such as getting unjustly angry and violent; and still others on a far higher-level such as getting unjustly angry and murdering someone(s).  All those failings (which of course also includes your example of rape) were not in the original plan for humanity, but are now there.  We generally pray for people and situations when things have gone wrong, so that we are asking God to provide help in such a situation, be that in the form of another human who is willing to listen to or advise someone, to treat them or to encourage them.  Whist your question is a valid questiuon, it can be very difficult to know just how many people have been encouraged and/or taught how to avoid letting the more destructive tendencies that humans can exhibit take them over.  For instance, we don't know just how many people who have a tendency to rape have managed to control those urges as a result of their faith in Christ or a discussion or listening session they've had with someone sent by God for that purpose.
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Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2016, 09:07:37 PM »
From a purely naturalistic pov, I'd agree, Floo.  However, as I've pointed out several times before, I (and others on this board) don't believe that life is exclusively naturalistic.

Indeed you have, ad nauseum: but you seem unable to justify your claim by presenting anything about 'life' that is mutually exclusive from the naturalistic.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2016, 09:20:41 PM »


Years ago a boy fell into the gorilla enclosure at the Gerald Durrell Conservation Zoo in Jersey but he was treated tenderly by a female gorilla until he was pulled out, unhurt.  It was quite touching.  However an alpha male is a different kettle of fish if his territory is invaded.  The keepers had no choice but to kill the gorilla, he was dragging the little boy around, might have maimed and killed him.


No. You have got this wrong so I'll just put the record straight.

It was a male gorilla named Jambo. He was the alpha male in the enclosure and he stood guard between the boy and the oither gorillas.
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2016, 09:32:01 PM »

Think it through and give some intelligent and logical suggestions.


Since I have rarely, if ever, seen you make any comment that is either intelligent or logical, seeing as most of your posts come from The Christian Book of Bollocks and Bullshit you should look at the beam in your own eye before looking at the mote in mine!
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2016, 09:35:07 PM »
HAS NO BEARING ON WHETHER KHATRU IS SPEAKING FOR ALL.
As for the crucifixion and the resurrection it is a truth already in existence and the choice no one else can make for another when it comes to believing it.

Did I really need to spell that out for you?

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

. . . and is only therefore exceeded by your arrogance. I, Sassy, am right about everything and anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant!
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Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2016, 09:36:41 PM »
You seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, jeremy - as usual.  We are all prone to failings - some on a low-level, such as getting unjustly angry but not violent; others on a higher-level, such as getting unjustly angry and violent; and still others on a far higher-level such as getting unjustly angry and murdering someone(s).

That some people do what we regard as bad things, either deliberately or by the result of them taking insufficient care is human artifice: and then there are the unintended accidents. This is just human behaviour. 

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All those failings (which of course also includes your example of rape) were not in the original plan for humanity, but are now there.

Not much of a plan then: poor quality control too - else your 'plan' is just religious superstition/myth.

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We generally pray for people and situations when things have gone wrong, so that we are asking God to provide help in such a situation, be that in the form of another human who is willing to listen to or advise someone, to treat them or to encourage them.

That you can do of course, and no doubt with good intentions, but this activity occurring isn't confirmation that there will be consequences that can be directly attributed to these prayers.

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Whist your question is a valid questiuon, it can be very difficult to know just how many people have been encouraged and/or taught how to avoid letting the more destructive tendencies that humans can exhibit take them over.  For instance, we don't know just how many people who have a tendency to rape have managed to control those urges as a result of their faith in Christ or a discussion or listening session they've had with someone sent by God for that purpose.

Not only do you not know 'how many' - you don't know if there are any at all without some method to identify any divine intervention.

I've no doubt that people seeking to change aspects of their personal circumstances might well find positive involvement in religion, and the support of others that follows, and that this may well support them in making lifestyle changes etc - although some may not benefit so it would be important to know about the failures too. However, this type of response involving focused group support isn't just a religious matter, where there are many non-religious organisations dealing with a range of issues that work using a similar ethos.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2016, 01:13:03 AM »
someone sent by God for that purpose.

How do you think god 'sends' that someone?
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