Why bother ringing 911?

[Gordon]

For homosexuality to be 'as normal as heterosexuality' 50% of the population would have to be one, 50% the other.

So 'normal' is defined by the trait in question being found in at least 50% of the population, where traits that aren't seen in the majority aren't 'normal: says who?

It may, like left-handedness or short-sightedness, be natural, but that is not the same thing.

So, since about 10% of people have left hand dominance this isn't, according to what you say, 'normal' even if it is 'natural': so, how do you separate the 'natural' from the 'normal' since you seem to be making a distinction? Then you need to explain how you get from not 'normal' to 'wrong'

Your approach here seems to be as nuanced as the proverbial bull in a china shop!

[floo]

I have not come across any children/young people who are "forced" into believing anything;  no-one is encouraged to be gay, they are either are or they are not.  However kids are encouraged to believe there is room for everyone and not be bothered if one of their fellow pupils has a different orientation to their self.  I think that is a very good thing and eventually the snide remarks, taunting etc, which gay kids used to experience will completely disappear.

Lucky you! Being threatened with hell-fire as a kid if I didn't do the 'born again' bit wasn't pleasant. Sadly that nastiness is still being forced down kids throats as I know for a fact.

[floo]

So 'normal' is defined by the trait in question being found in at least 50% of the population, where traits that aren't seen in the majority aren't 'normal: says who?

So, since about 10% of people have left hand dominance this isn't, according to what you say, 'normal' even if it is 'natural': so, how do you separate the 'natural' from the 'normal' since you seem to be making a distinction? Then you need to explain how you get from not 'normal' to 'wrong'

Your approach here seems to be as nuanced as the proverbial bull in a china shop!

As I have mentioned before my mother and her brother were beaten at school for being left handed. My uncle had to use his left hand as polio had caused his right arm to have very little movement! I write with my left hand, although I do everything else with my right. As a child an old man suggested my parents should punish me for writing with my left hand. That made me feel quite upset.

[Maeght]

But it was almost quite a good rap, no?

No.

[Maeght]

In the anglican prayer of confession we say that we have sinned against God in thought, word and deed, through negligence, through weakness and our own deliberate fault.

So sin can mean virtually anything in modern life. You learn something new everyday.

[Bubbles]

As I have mentioned before my mother and her brother were beaten at school for being left handed. My uncle had to use his left hand as polio had caused his right arm to have very little movement! I write with my left hand, although I do everything else with my right. As a child an old man suggested my parents should punish me for writing with my left hand. That made me feel quite upset.

Yes I remember left handers being told off in school and expected to use their right hand.

Sadly at the time teachers believed they were doing it in the interest of the child concerned as some tasks like using scissors or other tools are harder if you are left handed.

[Brownie]

Lucky you! Being threatened with hell-fire as a kid if I didn't do the 'born again' bit wasn't pleasant. Sadly that nastiness is still being forced down kids throats as I know for a fact.

I was talking about nowadays, floo!  We were all force fed a variety of stuff when we were kids (at home as well as school), but I honestly didn't know it happened now, thought it had been outlawed in school - can't answer for what some parents do.

[floo]

I was talking about nowadays, floo!  We were all force fed a variety of stuff when we were kids (at home as well as school), but I honestly didn't know it happened now, thought it had been outlawed in school - can't answer for what some parents do.

It might be outlawed at school but is still happening in the home and pentecostal churches!

[Hope]

I was talking about nowadays, floo!  We were all force fed a variety of stuff when we were kids (at home as well as school), but I honestly didn't know it happened now, thought it had been outlawed in school - can't answer for what some parents do.

I can think of some parents who force feed their children with some of the most extreme and weird stuff that I can think of, and I'm not referring to anything in the religious area of life.

[floo]

I can think of some parents who force feed their children with some of the most extreme and weird stuff that I can think of, and I'm not referring to anything in the religious area of life.

You can't get much weirder than insisting kids get 'saved' or go to hell, especially when there is not one shred of evidence to support that crazy belief!

[Hope]

You can't get much weirder than insisting kids get 'saved' or go to hell, especially when there is not one shred of evidence to support that crazy belief!

Well, I have seen really crazy things being taught to children - without having to touch the religious or political realms.   For instance, the idea that if a parent really loves you, they will necessarily buy you everything you might possibly want, even if you don't really need it.

[Brownie]

Very true, materialism is frequently forced on kids;  they like it up to a point but if it is over the top, there's nothing to look forward to.
The opposite can also be true.  I knew a couple, very nice indeed and reasonably well off, who felt so strongly that their kids should not expect too much that cost money, they would go to a cafe whilst out shopping and the children were allowed a snack or a drink, never both.  They had twins who had one birthday present between them, same at Christmas!  That was far too extreme.
You can't win.

[floo]

Well, I have seen really crazy things being taught to children - without having to touch the religious or political realms.   For instance, the idea that if a parent really loves you, they will necessarily buy you everything you might possibly want, even if you don't really need it.

Of course a lot of crazy things are taught to children, but using religion, of whatever faith, as a means of control is very unpleasant indeed, especially as it is only a belief with no evidence to substantiate it.

[Hope]

Of course a lot of crazy things are taught to children, but using religion, of whatever faith, as a means of control is very unpleasant indeed, especially as it is only a belief with no evidence to substantiate it.

But, as i've pointed out, it isn't the only area of life in which this can/does occur, and arguably there are many more serious abuses of the system than simply that of religious belief.  I think that we all appreciate that you suffered horrendously as a child, but I'm not convinced that it was religion that was controlling your parents' attitudes.  It may well have been that religion was used as a means of control by church leaders who were looking for compliant followers (and that spilled over into your parents' actions towards you).  If it really was religion controlling everything, why didn't I - as a son of a clergyman - experience the same treatment.

Finally for now, and at the risk of repeating myself ad finituum, what or where is the evidence for your assertion that " it is only a belief with no evidence to substantiate it"?

[Owlswing]

However all Hope said was he had heard of people who claimed they had, and so have I.

No he did not - what he said was

several decent people do regard homosexuality as wrong, . . . including some who are homosexual themselves.

This is NOT saying that these people "claimed" anything - he is saying, as he usually says, that it is a fact, that these people regard their homosexuality as being wrong.

As always, when challenged to provide the evidence, we get evasion!

[Owlswing]

Finally for now, and at the risk of repeating myself ad finituum, (this shouild read ad infinitum) what or where is the evidence for your assertion that " it is only a belief with no evidence to substantiate it"?

Thr same place as your evidence for your assertion that it is not only a belief and that there is evidence to substantiate it!

[floo]

But, as i've pointed out, it isn't the only area of life in which this can/does occur, and arguably there are many more serious abuses of the system than simply that of religious belief.  I think that we all appreciate that you suffered horrendously as a child, but I'm not convinced that it was religion that was controlling your parents' attitudes.  It may well have been that religion was used as a means of control by church leaders who were looking for compliant followers (and that spilled over into your parents' actions towards you).  If it really was religion controlling everything, why didn't I - as a son of a clergyman - experience the same treatment.

Finally for now, and at the risk of repeating myself ad finituum, what or where is the evidence for your assertion that " it is only a belief with no evidence to substantiate it"?

Hope the thoroughly evil 'born again' dogma controlled their lives. They were scared their kids would wind up in hell if they didn't get 'saved'. I wish they had been moderate Christians, or better still atheists, that would have made life a whole lot easier. Their faith spoilt what should have been an idyllic childhood for my siblings and I. We had sun, sand, sea and a fairly comfortable lifestyle.

[Brownie]

Owl: This is NOT saying that these people "claimed" anything - he is saying, as he usually says, that it is a fact, that these people regard their homosexuality as being wrong.


As previously stated, I too read and saw documentary about such people and as far as they were concerned, at the time, it was a fact.   My cynicism about it doesn't alter the fact.

[Owlswing]

Owl: This is NOT saying that these people "claimed" anything - he is saying, as he usually says, that it is a fact, that these people regard their homosexuality as being wrong.


As previously stated, I too read and saw documentary about such people and as far as they were concerned, at the time, it was a fact.   My cynicism about it doesn't alter the fact.

And where in the documentary were all those (a majority I would suggect) who do/did NOT think that their homosexuality is wrong?

Who made the documentary? What was their agenda in makng it?

A thousand to one on that it was some Chrisitan organisation's propaganda! Even an American Evangelical Right-wing Kill the Fags sect.

[Hope]

And where in the documentary were all those (a majority I would suggect) who do/did NOT think that their homosexuality is wrong?

Not quite sure what you are hoping to acheive by this statement, Owl.  No-one, other than you, have referred to proportions or numbers.

Who made the documentary? What was their agenda in makng it?

A thousand to one on that it was some Chrisitan organisation's propaganda! Even an American Evangelical Right-wing Kill the Fags sect.

I saw a documentary produced either by ITV or Channel 4 several years ago, and have read newspaper reports (Guardian or Times, probably) that had been sponsored by Stonewall UK.  Not sure what Brownie saw.  Have to say that whilst I've read artiles written by Christian groups giving both POVs, I've never seen a documentary on the issue produced by a Christian group.  That isn't to say that there aren't such things, just that I've never seen one either 'pro' or 'con'.

[Brownie]

And where in the documentary were all those (a majority I would suggect) who do/did NOT think that their homosexuality is wrong?

Who made the documentary? What was their agenda in makng it?

A thousand to one on that it was some Chrisitan organisation's propaganda! Even an American Evangelical Right-wing Kill the Fags sect.

Oh no, Owlswing, nothing like that, I'd remember were that the case (I have actually seen a doc about Westboro', a sort of expose).  The television documentary I saw was just made by....television documentary people I suppose.  There was no agenda.  It could easily have been about some other subject.

The interviews I read were in newspaper articles.

(There are plenty of other articles where people say quite the opposite, that attempts at 'treatment' or 're-orientation' did not work, in fact had very unpleasant effects.)

These are just reports about peoples' experiences as they view them at a particular time in their life.  Follow up might be interesting.

[Brownie]

And where in the documentary were all those (a majority I would suggect) who do/did NOT think that their homosexuality is wrong?

Who made the documentary? What was their agenda in makng it?

A thousand to one on that it was some Chrisitan organisation's propaganda! Even an American Evangelical Right-wing Kill the Fags sect.

Owlswing, I know I responded to this post earlier but a name came to mind today - Peter Ould.  I googled him and came up with the article linked below, the beginning of which concerns another person but ends up with Peter Ould.  Nothing up to date on him though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/19475393

[Owlswing]

Owlswing, I know I responded to this post earlier but a name came to mind today - Peter Ould.  I googled him and came up with the article linked below, the beginning of which concerns another person but ends up with Peter Ould.  Nothing up to date on him though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/19475393

Your liink confirms what I have said and what Hope denies - that their belief that their homosexuallity is/was wrong was a religious belief not a personal one!

Both Mr Toscano and Mr Ould state that it was their religion, Catholic and Anglican respectively, that identified their homosexuality as wrong and they accepted that as part of their religion.

[Brownie]

Yes they did say that.  Generally though, Christian people say the orientation is not wrong but putting it in practice is.

Interesting that Peter Ould never had a homosexual relationship, he was just attracted to other men at one time.  Makes me think he might not have been gay...who knows.  I'd like some more up to date info on him but could find none.

[Khatru]

What is your definition of 'sin'?

An imaginary illness dreamed up by people to sell you an imaginary cure.