Author Topic: Why bother ringing 911?  (Read 53506 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2016, 07:46:18 AM »
You seem to have got the wrong end of the stick, jeremy - as usual.

Actually, I think you'll find out it's a straw and you are grasping.

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All those failings (which of course also includes your example of rape) were not in the original plan for humanity, but are now there.
So God's plan includes rape.

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We generally pray for people and situations when things have gone wrong, so that we are asking God to provide help in such a situation

Have you ever heard of "prevention is better than cure". You are doing it all wrong.

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be that in the form of another human who is willing to listen to or advise someone, to treat them or to encourage them.
So it is wrong to manipulate the free will of a rapist but it is absolutely fine to do the same to other people to clear up the mess.

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we don't know just how many people who have a tendency to rape have managed to control those urges as a result of their faith in Christ or a discussion or listening session they've had with someone sent by God for that purpose.
Again, you have God manipulating free will, but not so effectively as to stop rape from happening and always manipulating the good guys.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2016, 08:39:35 AM by jeremyp »
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2016, 08:35:52 AM »
From a purely naturalistic pov, I'd agree, Floo.  However, as I've pointed out several times before, I (and others on this board) don't believe that life is exclusively naturalistic.

But you have no evidence it isn't so.

Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2016, 09:20:52 AM »
Whilst it is conceivable Jesus was crucified as he had made so many enemies, the resurrection story has no credibility to it whatsoever.

What credibility is that?

What credibility would you use to measure. Over a third of the world are Christian.
So given this... then credence is given to the evidence that a third of the worlds population against a two third mixed so separated gives Christ resurrection the most support that it is true.


As I said what credibility were you referring to? If truth you were not there but the disciples were. How do you apply credibility to anything which occurred in history. Given 2,000 years the belief still with us and the only religion where nothing has been disproved in any way what so ever.

I guess you have to show what exactly you are referring to when you say there is no credibility.
Given a third of the worlds population and given the different beliefs I think it is a credible fact which at least supports that something is true.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2016, 09:24:36 AM »
Even if the whole universe was Christian it still doesn't give the resurrection story any credibility as there is no evidence it actually happened. The Biblical accounts are NOT evidence!

Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2016, 01:07:38 AM »
Even if the whole universe was Christian it still doesn't give the resurrection story any credibility as there is no evidence it actually happened. The Biblical accounts are NOT evidence!

You haven't provided what was asked.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2016, 08:34:50 AM »
You haven't provided what was asked.

Like what, that people don't come back from the dead? What verifiable evidence is there that anyone who is truly dead has come back to life once more? You haven't any, only hearsay from documents which were written way back in time. If Jesus did resurrect why on earth didn't he appear to Herod, Pilate, the Roman soldiers who crucified him and everyone who had issues with him?

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2016, 09:44:36 AM »
What credibility is that?

What credibility would you use to measure. Over a third of the world are Christian.

So not even a slim majority.

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So given this... then credence is given to the evidence that a third of the worlds population against a two third mixed so separated gives Christ resurrection the most support that it is true.
No, the two thirds do not believe the resurrection story.
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Spud

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2016, 05:13:10 PM »
Probably half the world has never heard of Jesus though...

Spud

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2016, 05:45:02 PM »
If Jesus did resurrect why on earth didn't he appear to Herod, Pilate, the Roman soldiers who crucified him and everyone who had issues with him?
Same reason why he wouldn't perform miracles for them, I guess.

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2016, 08:11:04 PM »
Probably half the world has never heard of Jesus though...
the JWs have got their work cut out then!
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2016, 08:14:13 PM »
Even if the whole universe was Christian it still doesn't give the resurrection story any credibility as there is no evidence it actually happened. The Biblical accounts are NOT evidence!
And your warrant for asserting that they are not evidence is?

floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2016, 08:25:36 AM »
And your warrant for asserting that they are not evidence is?

Because they are not credible and not supported by independent authors of the time.

Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2016, 08:37:02 AM »
Because they are not credible and not supported by independent authors of the time.
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but the argument that you often use - namely that the authors were not members of Jesus' 12 disciples but other people writing some years after his death and purported resurrection - is actually a strong indicator of their independence.  Add to that, St Paul's references to the resurrection and the fact that, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions by folk, on both sides of the debate, that he didn't meet with the leaders of the Jerusalem church until quite some time into his ministry, and you have a further strand of independent evidence.  Finally, since it is generally accepted that Luke was an independent rapporteur, you have a 3rd such strand.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2016, 08:41:36 AM »
Probably half the world has never heard of Jesus though...
Meaning half the World is condemned to an eternity in hell even though they never even had the chance to turn to Christ. Your god is a monster.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2016, 08:44:42 AM »
Meaning half the World is condemned to an eternity in hell even though they never even had the chance to turn to Christ. Your god is a monster.

If that were true, it would indeed be evil.

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2016, 08:47:48 AM »
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but the argument that you often use - namely that the authors were not members of Jesus' 12 disciples but other people writing some years after his death and purported resurrection - is actually a strong indicator of their independence.
Two of the gospels copied Mark. That's a strong indicator of dependence, not independence.

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Add to that, St Paul's references to the resurrection

Paul's version of the resurrection is nothing like that of the gospels.


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and the fact that, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions by folk, on both sides of the debate, that he didn't meet with the leaders of the Jerusalem church until quite some time into his ministry, and you have a further strand of independent evidence.

But wasn't at the resurrection and he explicitly claims his teachings came from revelation which means you can't claim him as a source at all.

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Finally, since it is generally accepted that Luke was an independent rapporteur
Explain how his gospel copies over 90% of Mark and a large proportion of Matthew and yet maintains independence.
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Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2016, 08:49:32 AM »

Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but the argument that you often use - namely that the authors were not members of Jesus' 12 disciples but other people writing some years after his death and purported resurrection - is actually a strong indicator of their independence. 


NO! It is not "a strong indicator of their independence", it is poisitive evidence that what they are writing is HEARSAY and NOT first hand knowledge.

So far there is not a single item of evidence that was written at the time of Christ - it is all recollection - even the four gospels were written after the passage of years and human memory is fallble!

Only something written at the time is viable evidence - and there isn't a single item available that qualifies!

Anything written that might contradict the Church's version of history was re-written, hidden in the Vatican archives or destroyed yonks ago! 
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2016, 08:51:44 AM »
Meaning half the World is condemned to an eternity in hell even though they never even had the chance to turn to Christ. Your god is a monster.
[/quote

Which group of Christians do you know who believe that Jeremy?  God will judge us on what we know.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2016, 08:59:20 AM »


Meaning half the World is condemned to an eternity in hell even though they never even had the chance to turn to Christ. Your god is a monster.


God will judge us on what we know.


In that case Jeremy is right - the half of the world that has "never even had the chance to turn to Christ" is going to be judged because they have never sought him (Christ), or knowledge of him (Christ), out!.

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2016, 09:05:46 AM »
NO! It is not "a strong indicator of their independence", it is poisitive evidence that what they are writing is HEARSAY and NOT first hand knowledge.

So far there is not a single item of evidence that was written at the time of Christ - it is all recollection - even the four gospels were written after the passage of years and human memory is fallble!

Only something written at the time is viable evidence - and there isn't a single item available that qualifies!

Anything written that might contradict the Church's version of history was re-written, hidden in the Vatican archives or destroyed yonks ago!

Exactly

BeRational

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2016, 09:17:47 AM »
It should be noted that it is unknown who wrote the gospels!
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Hope

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2016, 09:21:37 AM »
NO! It is not "a strong indicator of their independence", it is poisitive evidence that what they are writing is HEARSAY and NOT first hand knowledge.
No, what no-one has ever said is that the writers weren't eye-witnesses of the events - what they have said is that they weren't the disciples Matthew and John; or Mark, who the early Church understood to be the lad who was following Jesus and the disciples when Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane - Mark 14: 51-2

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So far there is not a single item of evidence that was written at the time of Christ - it is all recollection - even the four gospels were written after the passage of years and human memory is fallble!
Unfortunately, there is no evience that there is no such evidence, Owl.  Yes, I realise that that may sound a tad tortuous, but with the earliest extant document or fragment dating from about 150 years after the death and resurrection events, t is actually very difficult to know when the materials were originally penned.  If, as suggested by some, Mark was the lad who followed Jesus and the disciples to Gethsemane, the fact that the commonly held date for his Gospel - the early 60s AD - is 30-odd years after the events is largely irrelevant, as he would have been an eye-witness.  The added suggestion, that he acted a scribe for Peter's recollections also point to the possibility of eye-witness accounts.  Human memory is not as fallible as you like to make out when momentous events occur.

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Only something written at the time is viable evidence - and there isn't a single item available that qualifies!
In which case, most of the histories of the First and Second World Wars, most major world events of the last 3000 years, etc. are invalid.

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Anything written that might contradict the Church's version of history was re-written, hidden in the Vatican archives or destroyed yonks ago!
OK, evidence for these three claims please.  Remember, too, that hiding them 'in the Vatican archives' smacks more of wanting to preserve that destroy them.
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Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2016, 09:41:28 AM »
Sorry to disappoint you, Floo, but the argument that you often use - namely that the authors were not members of Jesus' 12 disciples but other people writing some years after his death and purported resurrection - is actually a strong indicator of their independence.  Add to that, St Paul's references to the resurrection and the fact that, as has been pointed out on a number of occasions by folk, on both sides of the debate, that he didn't meet with the leaders of the Jerusalem church until quite some time into his ministry, and you have a further strand of independent evidence.  Finally, since it is generally accepted that Luke was an independent rapporteur, you have a 3rd such strand.

On what basis have you been able to exclude the risk of mistakes or lies in these accounts?

Owlswing

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2016, 10:15:35 AM »
No, what no-one has ever said is that the writers weren't eye-witnesses of the events - what they have said is that they weren't the disciples Matthew and John; or Mark, who the early Church understood to be the lad who was following Jesus and the disciples when Jesus was arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane - Mark 14: 51-2
Unfortunately, there is no evience that there is no such evidence, Owl.  Yes, I realise that that may sound a tad tortuous, but with the earliest extant document or fragment dating from about 150 years after the death and resurrection events, t is actually very difficult to know when the materials were originally penned.  If, as suggested by some, Mark was the lad who followed Jesus and the disciples to Gethsemane, the fact that the commonly held date for his Gospel - the early 60s AD - is 30-odd years after the events is largely irrelevant, as he would have been an eye-witness.  The added suggestion, that he acted a scribe for Peter's recollections also point to the possibility of eye-witness accounts.  Human memory is not as fallible as you like to make out when momentous events occur.
In which case, most of the histories of the First and Second World Wars, most major world events of the last 3000 years, etc. are invalid.
OK, evidence for these three claims please.  Remember, too, that hiding them 'in the Vatican archives' smacks more of wanting to preserve that destroy them.

Hope - you are truly hopeless!

You are so indoctrinated into blindness that nothing short of a brick with a message from your God himself tied to it hitting you in the head will ever change your blinkered and pathetic attachment to the "History of Christianity as Christians wish it was as re-written by other Christians", otherwise know and the (Un)Holy Bible.

All you posts prove is that you are not half as clever or as knowledgable as you would have us think you are and that Sunday School indoctrination and brainwashing works!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 12:39:08 PM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2016, 10:23:29 AM »
Meaning half the World is condemned to an eternity in hell even though they never even had the chance to turn to Christ. Your god is a monster.

Which group of Christians do you know who believe that Jeremy?  God will judge us on what we know.
What does happen to the billions of people throughout history who never heard of Jesus then?
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