Why bother ringing 911?

[Gordon]

When you do an internet search on this most of the top results all point to his own websites. It also seems his take on Christianity is quite profitable. http://www.the-net-worth.com/2016/06/andrew-wommack/

Where is the independent confirmation of death? If a death certificate was issued in error this would be of concern to the relevant authorities for both the registration of deaths and the competence of whoever certified the death certificate, so I'd imagine this would have been noted by the authorities given the (self)publicity from Wommack.

If there is no death certificate then this tale would best view viewed as being unreconstructed bollocks: ideal though for the  business of extracting money from the chronically gullible.

[Owlswing]

When you do an internet search on this most of the top results all point to his own websites. It also seems his take on Christianity is quite profitable. http://www.the-net-worth.com/2016/06/andrew-wommack/

Where is the independent confirmation of death? If a death certificate was issued in error this would be of concern to the relevant authorities for both the registration of deaths and the competence of whoever certified the death certificate, so I'd imagine this would have been noted by the authorities given the (self)publicity from Wommack.

If there is no death certificate then this tale would best view viewed as being unreconstructed bollocks: ideal though for the  business of extracting money from the chronically gullible.

Gordon

. . . would best (be) viewed as being unreconstructed bollocks.

Could you not have foumd a more technical term than "unreconstructed bollocks"?

Actually, on second thoughts, it is probably as accurate a description as it is possible to find!

[floo]

Gordon

Could you not have foumd a more technical term than "unreconstructed bollocks"?

Actually, on second thoughts, it is probably as accurate a description as it is possible to find!

[Spud]

So the story goes: and a post-hoc one at that, so not much different from the story that Gandalf made great fireworks. The latter is acknowledged fiction as could be the the former unless you've meaningfully excluded this risk - it seems you haven't
 
Not again! They may well have honestly believed the Jesus myth and were killed for it: this doesn't mean the myth is true.

Except maybe they were the ones who were deceived.

Some things can't happen, Spud: ask your local undertaker if death is invariably permanent: you'll find it is, with no exceptions.

The gospels are indistinguishable from fiction: oh dear!

Ah, so having eliminated the risk of lies and mistakes, now you're saying it's made up, like Lord of the rings. This is probably the best argument. Unlike LOTR, though, it's set in a historical context - the Roman occupation of Judea. Some of the characters are historical people. It describes certain events that are know to have happened (eg the Roman Census, AD 70). It's style is characteristic of a historical report. I can't say I have heard of any fiction writer who's been put to death for their work? And how come Christianity wasn't eliminated? I know none of these things prove the miracles to be non-fiction, but it is easy to see that if you lived in the first century, the witnesses to the miracles would have been available to cross-examine. If they had been lying or making it up or mistaken, they would have been exposed and we would expect to find other literature telling us the gospels were fakes.

[Brownie]

Gordon is right, there is no death certificate;  it would be on record if there were.  It also appears the son in question was quite disturbed by all of the stuff surrounding his supposed death and who wouldn't be.

Unreconstructed bollocks fits the bill but I do find it deeply sad that people, including one of our fellow posters, actually believe what the man says.  I've never seen him preach on television but I don't have satellite channels or whatever he would be on, but there are many who do and obviously he is well known over the pond.  He exploits the vulnerable.  I feel very sorry indeed for the vulnerable who need protection.  I can see it brings light and comfort into their lives but it's false, exploitative and it is up to those around them to be caring and try to introduce some legitimate comfort to them.

[jjohnjil]

Gordon is right, there is no death certificate;  it would be on record if there were.  It also appears the son in question was quite disturbed by all of the stuff surrounding his supposed death and who wouldn't be.

Unreconstructed bollocks fits the bill but I do find it deeply sad that people, including one of our fellow posters, actually believe what the man says.  I've never seen him preach on television but I don't have satellite channels or whatever he would be on, but there are many who do and obviously he is well known over the pond.  He exploits the vulnerable.  I feel very sorry indeed for the vulnerable who need protection.  I can see it brings light and comfort into their lives but it's false, exploitative and it is up to those around them to be caring and try to introduce some legitimate comfort to them.

If you watched the audiences in those religious TV stations, Brownie - most of them, running 24/7 - you'd realise that Sassy is by no means alone in believing their bollocks.

It is wrong that they're allowed to get away with conning people in that way, but I suppose free speech rules, eh!

Personally, I wouldn't dream of buying a used car off of any one of the presenters of these shows. 

[floo]

Gordon is right, there is no death certificate;  it would be on record if there were.  It also appears the son in question was quite disturbed by all of the stuff surrounding his supposed death and who wouldn't be.

Unreconstructed bollocks fits the bill but I do find it deeply sad that people, including one of our fellow posters, actually believe what the man says.  I've never seen him preach on television but I don't have satellite channels or whatever he would be on, but there are many who do and obviously he is well known over the pond.  He exploits the vulnerable.  I feel very sorry indeed for the vulnerable who need protection.  I can see it brings light and comfort into their lives but it's false, exploitative and it is up to those around them to be caring and try to introduce some legitimate comfort to them.

Good post.

[Gordon]

I've actually seen this guy's TV show. Channel 287 of the VirginMedia service is the 'God' channel, which consists mainly of USA stuff plus of course the adverts to extract dosh from the faithful.

Since I retired the ironing has been delegated to me (which I quite enjoy doing during the day when Mrs G is working) so I stick the ironing board in front of the telly and make it a rule to either watch an old movie (watched Harvey just the other day whilst ironing) or look at the myriad of channels that I wouldn't normally touch with a bargepole.

I've alighted on this guy several times: his presentation style is, I think, creepy and of course the content is utterly bizarre. For a real laugh though you need to catch the 'conferences' they broadcast - just for a few minutes though, any longer is unbearable - leaving aside the nonsense from the platform you get to see the even odder sight of US hallelujah merchants 'a-whoopin it up', and in some cases there is the added delight of attempted religious rock (sounds like an oxymoron) music - then I press any button on the channel changer before I lose the will to keep ironing!   

[floo]

If you watched the audiences in those religious TV stations, Brownie - most of them, running 24/7 - you'd realise that Sassy is by no means alone in believing their bollocks.

It is wrong that they're allowed to get away with conning people in that way, but I suppose free speech rules, eh!

Personally, I wouldn't dream of buying a used car off of any one of the presenters of these shows.

I have watched the God Channel from time to time, I am totally gobsmacked by the total garbage which flows from the mouths of those conmen!  It is so very sad that some people are gullible enough to believe every word they say, and line those shysters' pockets very generously.

Talking of buying a used car off them, puts me in mind of a 'born again' who gave it large on a Sunday in church, but had a business selling used cars during the week. He had a reputation for ripping people off, and was prosecuted, I believed!

[Hope]

I have watched the God Channel from time to time, I am totally gobsmacked by the total garbage which flows from the mouths of those conmen!  It is so very sad that some people are gullible enough to believe every word they say, and line those shysters' pockets very generously.

Talking of buying a used car off them, puts me in mind of a 'born again' who gave it large on a Sunday in church, but had a business selling used cars during the week. He had a reputation for ripping people off, and was prosecuted, I believed!

I've only very occasionally watched the Gd Channel - I have better things to use my time with - but it should be noted that not all the programmes are run by or even fronted by such folk.  I've watched coverage of a couple of excellent worship conferences that don't even attempt to get money off one.

[Owlswing]

I've only very occasionally watched the Gd Channel - I have better things to use my time with - but it should be noted that not all the programmes are run by or even fronted by such folk.  I've watched coverage of a couple of excellent worship conferences that don't even attempt to get money off one.

This in no way excuses the outright money-grabbing of the rest of them that is thelife-blood odf Americam TV evangelism.

[floo]

My late elderly, wealthy, great aunt, a Christian, was somehow conned into giving that shyster, Oral Roberts, several thousands of pounds in the 60s, he even sent her one of his grotty plastic prayer towers as a thank you! Her son soon put a stop to it when he discovered what was going on.

Some years ago my brother-in-law and his wife were in America and went to see Benny Hinn in action. Apparently the guy can put on quite a show, rather like that of a first class magician, so it is no wonder the more gullible are taken in by that conman.   

[Hope]

This in no way excuses the outright money-grabbing of the rest of them that is thelife-blood odf Americam TV evangelism.

I didn't say it did, Owl; just pointing out that that isn't the extent of the content.  The likes of Oral Roberts have been around for decades, and not merely within the religious context.

[Spud]

How is it "quite certain"? There is no evidence to give your statement certainty!

It's certain the authors believed what they wrote to be true because, as I said, they were persecuted for continuing to preach. This would have caused them to give up if they were lying or had made it up.

Rubbish! There are no firsthand accounts of anything that is claimed for Christ that were written at the time and the human memory is fallible engendering all kinds of incorrect memories = mistakes.

Matthew was an eye-witness. John, the beloved disciple, wrote the fourth gospel (by dictating to a secretary) and three letters.
Paul describes Christ appearing to him in 1 Cor 15:
"Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."
Mark probably was the young man in Mk 14:51
Luke was not an eyewitness. But he traveled with Paul (see Acts) to whom Jesus had appeared. This would have been hearsay even to readers in the first century if they didn't have statements from Paul's letters that confirm what he taught Luke.

Again this comment is rubbish as there are NO first hand reports that were written at the time.

See above.

Believing the gospels are true is the result of your childhood brainwashing and a serious sign of a dangerously closed mind!

No, I didn't get confirmed with the youth group but later when I was sure it was what I believed.

[Owlswing]

I didn't say it did, Owl; just pointing out that that isn't the extent of the content.  The likes of Oral Roberts have been around for decades, and not merely within the religious context.

Whilst one bad apple can spoil the entire barrel, one good apple will never rescue a barrel of bad ones, and, IMO, the entire American evangelical Christian movement, whether TV, Radio or the press, stinks to high heaven (if such actually exists) of sanictimonious avarice, and in some cases, sexual depravity.

[Hope]

Whilst one bad apple can spoil the entire barrel, one good apple will never rescue a barrel of bad ones, and, IMO, the entire American evangelical Christian movement, whether TV, Radio or the press, stinks to high heaven (if such actually exists) of sanictimonious avarice, and in some cases, sexual depravity.

Owl, I think that your generalisation about the "entire American evangelical Christian movement" using legitimate examples which make up a small fraction of that group of people is somewhat misleading.  I accept that the likes of Roberts, Falwell, Copeland, Hinn and the rest are extremely bad examples of what religion can do, but its also worth remembering the work that the likes of Jim Wallis, John Wimber and Vineyard and thousands of local evangelical congregations across the States do in terms of working with homelessness, drug addiction, human trafficking victims, etc.  It is so easy to caricature a particular group of people in a given way according to the behaviour of a minority - think of the way that the British media have traditionally caricatured British youth, or the Muslim community.  It is far more difficult to separate out the bad apples and highlight them, whilst also highlighting the good apples.

Finally, with several of the bad apples we've mentioned, they aren't even mainstream evangelical.  They all peddle forms of the Prosperity Gospel which bears very little relation to to Biblical teaching, and which has only really begun to have an influence in the last 30+ years.  The only reason we hear so much about them is because of their quirks and foibles.

[Hope]

This in no way excuses the outright money-grabbing of the rest of them that is thelife-blood odf Americam TV evangelism.

Again, I'm not trying to say otherwise.  Thankfully, though, they are a minority, even if they make a lot of the noise.

[floo]

Whilst one bad apple can spoil the entire barrel, one good apple will never rescue a barrel of bad ones, and, IMO, the entire American evangelical Christian movement, whether TV, Radio or the press, stinks to high heaven (if such actually exists) of sanictimonious avarice, and in some cases, sexual depravity.

I agree it certainly doesn't have a good reputation.

I have just come across this list of disgraced evangelists.

http://theevangelists.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/hall-of-shame.html

[Owlswing]

Again, I'm not trying to say otherwise.  Thankfully, though, they are a minority, even if they make a lot of the noise.

Hope - you are still trying to defend the indefencible!

[Brownie]

I am just testing because, three or four times, I've tried to post a longer-but-not-that-long reply to this thread and I keep getting a 'Forbidden' message.  I've copied it and tried to post again with the copy, altered it, reduced the paragraphs and it still doesn't work.  Maybe it isn't meant to be but I'll try again in a bit, especially if this one sticks.
-----------------------

No joy, I do not have permission to access index php and have encountered Forbidden 403 something.

Anyone else had this?

In the meantime I'll try to rewrite it and if it doesn't work this time I will give up.

[floo]

It is really irritating when that happens, Brownie, it happens to me about once a week, or so.

[Nearly Sane]

I am just testing because, three or four times, I've tried to post a longer-but-not-that-long reply to this thread and I keep getting a 'Forbidden' message.  I've copied it and tried to post again with the copy, altered it, reduced the paragraphs and it still doesn't work.  Maybe it isn't meant to be but I'll try again in a bit, especially if this one sticks.
-----------------------

No joy, I do not have permission to access index php and have encountered Forbidden 403 something.

Anyone else had this?

In the meantime I'll try to rewrite it and if it doesn't work this time I will give up.

The board has some odd bit of programming which censors some things. Never been able to work it out. If there is an obvious word that might be triggering it, try putting spaces in it.

[Brownie]

I think I've lost it now NS and will have to re-compose.  I can't imagine any of the words I used are controversial but I know boards vary and pick up on all sorts.  Interesting that floo has the same problem regularly (I've had it before), so it must be fairly common.

Anyway I'll try doing it again later, it's not that important.  Thanks for help.

[Owlswing]

I think I've lost it now NS and will have to re-compose.  I can't imagine any of the words I used are controversial but I know boards vary and pick up on all sorts.  Interesting that floo has the same problem regularly (I've had it before), so it must be fairly common.

Anyway I'll try doing it again later, it's not that important.  Thanks for help.

A firm I used to work for had a system that would not all you to type a surname of "Black" (refused due to racism) or the county of Middlesex, or at least not in full!

[Sassy]

Just out of interest, is there formal confirmation of clinical death that is wholly independent of Wommack?

The hospital staff and doctors.

I'd image the local coroner (or whatever the US title is) would be very interested in the circumstances and the competence of whoever certified the death: at the very least an investigation into the circumstances.

Are you telling me or asking me, Gordon?


It is a miracle but not the only miracle happening amongst the people at his Church.
I see no reason for you not to contact them and ask directly.