Author Topic: Why bother ringing 911?  (Read 53681 times)

Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #125 on: July 24, 2016, 01:15:30 PM »
No one who is truly dead comes back that is just NOT possible. Wommack's son obviously wasn't really dead!

You see NO OPEN MIND NO REALLY WANT OF TRUTH.

You see your problem you deny it without even looking at the evidence.
THE PROFESSIONALS DO NOT PUT LIVE PEOPLE IN MORGUE FRIDGES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJQcuipwsBM
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Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #126 on: July 24, 2016, 01:17:11 PM »
The hospital staff and doctors would not speak about it.  At least that is what I have read from a couple of sources on the internet.   However, everyone knows that reports aren't necessaarily reliable so if there are any others that authenticate Mr Wommack's claims, please copy and post a link.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 01:20:44 PM by Brownie »
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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #127 on: July 24, 2016, 01:18:56 PM »
Because those people didn't accept the kind of king he was to be. They had already asked him for a sign from heaven (Matthew 16) to prove his authority to be king. They were not expecting the Christ to be someone like Jesus, who was healing and miraculously feeding Gentiles, and saying that the ceremonial law no longer applied. Presumably they thought he would defeat the Romans if he was the Christ.

It's all excuses with you Christians.
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #128 on: July 24, 2016, 01:19:44 PM »
A relative once told us the dead were being raised in Africa. When we asked why it wasn't headline news, he claimed that they wanted to keep it under wraps as people might scoff, as if they would! :D

People still being raised from the dead. But you are not interested if true as your last post proved.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #129 on: July 24, 2016, 01:26:16 PM »
The hospital staff and doctors.Are you telling me or asking me, Gordon?


It is a miracle but not the only miracle happening amongst the people at his Church.
I see no reason for you not to contact them and ask directly. :)

Like you would get anything resembling the actual truth of the matter!

Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #130 on: July 24, 2016, 01:28:14 PM »
Here is a case of someone in England reportedly raising a person from the dead:

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/49708-report-robby-dawkins-raises-a-man-from-the-dead-in-england

I think the guy probably wasn't dead though he was near to it. He had had strokes before. The 'death rattle' that was heard was probably something else and before anyone says,  I have heard Cheyne Stokes respiration.  Still he made a remarkable recovery, apparently far better than he was before this occurred.  The brain is such a complex organ.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #131 on: July 24, 2016, 01:37:41 PM »
According to Justin Martyr, "The Jews were behind all the persecutions of the Christians. They wandered through the country everywhere hating and undermining the Christian faith."
How do you know he didn't get his information from Paul's letters?

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What about multiple authors with multiple sources?
What about the 27 independent books of the NT?
That is a laughable statement.

As a first point, you can't count two books by the same author as being independent, so Luke and Acts are not independent. Neither are the seven genuine letters of Paul. You are already down to twenty "independent" books without breaking a sweat.

Then we note that the gospels are all dependent on Mark or his source (possibly excluding John). So, now we are down to 18 (possibly 17) independent books.

We'll stop there because to show that many of the other books are dependent on each other would require me to do a bit of Googling.

But OK, how many of the 18 independent books in the Bible detail post resurrection appearances of Jesus beyond saying "he appeared". The answer is three - the synoptics including Acts, gospel of John and Paul. How many post resurrection appearances are described in more than one place? The answer is one - Paul's conversion.

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Not just talking about the crucifixion and resurrection, but the miracles which were witnessed by crowds in the region.
but none of the crowd ever wrote anything about the miracles.

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Nobody came forward and said that Jesus didn't do what is written in the gospels.

The gospels were written thirty to sixty years after the event. It seems unlikely that anybody would be left to come forward.

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Yes, but why would they endure persecution and not just admit they'd made it up?

How do you know they endured persecution. What documentary evidence have you got that (for example) Peter was crucified?

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To your mind, yes. Because you never saw a dead man coming alive again. But just because you haven't witnessed something doesn't mean it can't happen.
Nobody has witnessed a dead man coming alive again. On the other hand, the effects of two days being dead in a hot climate have been witnessed. Jesus' brain would have been mush before he came back alive.

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The gospels pass every test for authenticity, but miracles can't happen. Oh dear.
What do you mean by a test for authenticity? They certainly pass every test for being fictional.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #132 on: July 24, 2016, 01:37:43 PM »
It has been known for people to be actually put in their coffin when it was believed they were dead, only for them to revive, how awful for them. It must be even worse if someone comes to having actually been buried, I believe that has happened to. 

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #133 on: July 24, 2016, 01:44:46 PM »
Wikipedia are you for real... That is not the way to research the truth about him raising his Son from the dead.
Look and read the real event. Andrews Son had been killed in a car accident he was in the morgue fridge when Andrew and his wife arrived after several hours of travelling.

So if you want to read the facts then go to his own site and the hospital witnesses.

Can you find a source other than Womack himself for the things he claims?
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Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #134 on: July 24, 2016, 01:47:15 PM »
In days gone by floo, there are many tests nowadays on people who have died and don't have a post mortem, to ensure they are really dead.

It is a horrifying thought, probably most people's worst nightmare.  I can't even bear to think about it and if there's anything on TV that touches on the subject, I switch off.

Post mortem ensures death, indeed a PM is only performed on a dead person.  Embalming is another safeguard.  However death is reliably confirmed in these times, apart from that most people have to wait for a funeral so the deceased is hanging about at the undertakers for up to a fortnight, not frozen, just cold.  The undertakers have a look at them every day.

Eeeewww, let's change the subject.  I don't mind talking about death, am not afraid of it, but some subjects give me the horrors!

The reports of people being raised from the dead, like the one I linked to above, are probably about people who weren't really dead though they may have stopped breathing and been resuscitated.

There must be links to the medics involved in the Wommack case, I have asked for them to copied here.
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #135 on: July 24, 2016, 01:53:56 PM »

Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #136 on: July 24, 2016, 01:57:04 PM »
The hospital staff and doctors.

So you'll have a link to the death certificate, since these are public records. In addition, in the days of modern medicine, and assuming there is a death certificate, there will then be the investigation of the wrongly issued death certificate.

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It is a miracle but not the only miracle happening amongst the people at his Church.

It isn't you know since it hasn't been established that the guy was clinically dead in the first place and where the claims of resurrection come from those with a vested interest - the story is good for the Wommack business no doubt.   

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I see no reason for you not to contact them and ask directly. :)

Why should I do that? You raised this subject so it would be for you to follow it through and provide both a link to the key document (the death certificate) - without that, and given the vested interests involved, it would be sensible to treat this as fictitious propaganda for the lucrative Wommack cause.   

Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2016, 02:03:50 PM »
Like you would get anything resembling the actual truth of the matter!

Case files don't lie. Would you lie if you witnessed this at a hospital?
So stop making stupid allegations even you cannot support. EXCUSES IS ALL YOU MAKE AND THEY HAVE NO WEIGHT OR MERIT since you  by your suggestion the staff at the hospital less than truthful.
Are you less than truthful?
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Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2016, 02:11:57 PM »
Case files don't lie. Would you lie if you witnessed this at a hospital?
So stop making stupid allegations even you cannot support. EXCUSES IS ALL YOU MAKE AND THEY HAVE NO WEIGHT OR MERIT since you  by your suggestion the staff at the hospital less than truthful.
Are you less than truthful?

Then link to the death certificate, or failing that the formal investigation into into events in the mortuary.

If you can't then all you have are these unspecified anecdotes reported by interested parties -which is worthless as evidence of anything.

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #139 on: July 24, 2016, 02:18:57 PM »
Case files don't lie.
What case files? I haven't seen any evidence that these case files even exist.
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2016, 02:24:58 PM »
So you'll have a link to the death certificate, since these are public records. In addition, in the days of modern medicine, and assuming there is a death certificate, there will then be the investigation of the wrongly issued death certificate.

How long does someone have to be dead before a death certificate is issued?
So not viable argument on your part then.
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It isn't you know since it hasn't been established that the guy was clinically dead in the first place and where the claims of resurrection come from those with a vested interest - the story is good for the Wommack business no doubt.   

The facts are what they are. Since Andrew Wommack did not cause the car accident or had anything to do with his Sons death only his ressurrection. Which took place hours after his death when he was allowed to see the body which was stripped, blue and naked in the morgue where it has been for hours. Please explain your statement. Really it does not warrant an answer does it as it does not contain anything but you assumptions based on only your own bias as an atheist.
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Why should I do that? You raised this subject so it would be for you to follow it through and provide both a link to the key document (the death certificate) - without that, and given the vested interests involved, it would be sensible to treat this as fictitious propaganda for the lucrative Wommack cause.

It would be expected from an educated person not to ask ridiculous questions and make up things as you have done. Death certificates are not issued at the moment of death.
The death certificate is issued officially when you present the notification from the hospital of the death and the registrar issues the certificate.

The hospital does their own post death examination to ensure everything done properly and issue the cause of death. When his Father got to the hospital no such examination would have been done. He did die and he did rise to life. If you think it did not happen then make your own searches. Why not visit the hospital?
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Sassy

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #141 on: July 24, 2016, 02:26:25 PM »
What case files? I haven't seen any evidence that these case files even exist.

REALLY... IS that because you haven't researched the hospital or what happened?
Hence the reason you never learn anything, you never search for the truth.

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Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2016, 02:32:48 PM »
REALLY... IS that because you haven't researched the hospital or what happened?
Hence the reason you never learn anything, you never search for the truth.

You raised the case so it is reasonable to ask to present the details (as opposed to the unspecified anecdotes).

jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2016, 02:33:03 PM »
REALLY... IS that because you haven't researched the hospital or what happened?
Hence the reason you never learn anything, you never search for the truth.

Why would I do your research for you? If you provide a link to where I can see the death certificate and the report about the incident, I'll read it. So off you go.

At the moment, his sounds like a bullshit story from an American evangelist preacher. American evangelists are more well known for their ability to gouge gullible Christians than telling the truth.
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Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #144 on: July 24, 2016, 02:33:29 PM »
It's all excuses with you Christians.

Oy!  Not all of us.

I'm very conscious that poor old Spud (no offence meant by use of the "old" Spud) has been trying to get a word in edgeways while we've been preoccupied with Mr Wommack and suchlike.

Floo, thanks for the link which I am not going to open as I fear it may be bad for my health  :D :(.

Sassy, you must have read something somewhere in which the medics actually say what happened.  They would have no reason to lie.  Please do post a link, I've not been able to find one and all we have is what Andrew Wommack says.
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jeremyp

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #145 on: July 24, 2016, 02:37:22 PM »
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floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2016, 02:38:58 PM »
Case files don't lie. Would you lie if you witnessed this at a hospital?
So stop making stupid allegations even you cannot support. EXCUSES IS ALL YOU MAKE AND THEY HAVE NO WEIGHT OR MERIT since you  by your suggestion the staff at the hospital less than truthful.
Are you less than truthful?

Sass, no one has come back to life who is really and truly dead, that is not possible, and you have no evidence to support that claim.

Gordon

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2016, 03:05:14 PM »
How long does someone have to be dead before a death certificate is issued?
So not viable argument on your part then.

I actually have quite a bit of experience of this during the first part of my NHS career: too much in fact. I'd imagine that the situation in the USA is similar to here in that death needs to be certified before mortuary staff will accept the 'customer'. In most cases of hospital deaths they are certified quite quickly, since the cause is required it needs a medic who has access to the case history and who needs to confirm that death has occurred and the cause, where the documentation in needed to register the death and arrange a funeral, and in the case of hospital deaths to remove the body from the clinical area where death occurred.

You haven't set out the details, but if the claim is that the body was in the mortuary with tag-on-toe but there is no death certificate then it probably isn't true (given the business of the vested interests in the case).     

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The facts are what they are.

No facts have been offered.

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Since Andrew Wommack did not cause the car accident or had anything to do with his Sons death only his ressurrection.

You've yet to provide convincing evidence of the death, since if he wasn't dead then he wasn't resurrected.

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Which took place hours after his death when he was allowed to see the body which was stripped, blue and naked in the morgue where it has been for hours. Please explain your statement. Really it does not warrant an answer does it as it does not contain anything but you assumptions based on only your own bias as an atheist.

One answer is that in the absence of documentation this claim may be false.   

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It would be expected from an educated person not to ask ridiculous questions and make up things as you have done. Death certificates are not issued at the moment of death.

When the death occurs in hospital it does, as I noted earlier. Rigor can begin after just a couple of hours so the examination of the body would be done fairly promptly - rigor starts first in the eyelids, jaw and neck and examination of the pupils is one of the key indicators of clinical death.
 
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The death certificate is issued officially when you present the notification from the hospital of the death and the registrar issues the certificate.

Wrong - the certification of death requires a qualified medical practitioner, and in the UK it requires two separate examinations if a cremation is planned.

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The hospital does their own post death examination to ensure everything done properly and issue the cause of death. When his Father got to the hospital no such examination would have been done. He did die and he did rise to life. If you think it did not happen then make your own searches. Why not visit the hospital?

This doesn't sound remotely credible - bodies don't get into mortuaries unless death has been properly certified, and if they did then that would be  issue worthy of investigation.

So, where is the death certificate - since without it this story is exactly that: a story, and since you are championing it then we should expect you to present the essential details.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 03:17:21 PM by Gordon »

floo

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2016, 03:09:31 PM »
Benny Hinn claimed amputated limbs had regrown, but of course no medical evidence was forthcoming.

Brownie

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Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2016, 04:10:00 PM »
I didn't know that floo.  Well I never.

I have searched for reports from the hospital, specifically the medical staff involved, where Jonathan Peter Wommack was treated and where the alleged miracle took place and cannot find anything!  Neither can I find any testimony from the man himself.

Sassy, for the umpteenth time, please post a link, I've done some research which has got me nowhere.
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