Author Topic: Why bother ringing 911?  (Read 52674 times)

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #150 on: July 24, 2016, 04:44:21 PM »

This thread has become a prime demonstration of why, in all probability, this forum is attracting so few new postsers.

Two or three died-in-the wool "the bible is historical truth and fact in every detail" Christians who will refuse to change their comments or beliefs despite the efforts of at least twice and sometimes three-times their number posting details of each and every error which exists in what they are posting.

Also, just about any post that is not, originally about Christianity is very quickly diverted to make it so! (With sapologies to Jean-Luc Picard!)

The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32223
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #151 on: July 24, 2016, 04:50:46 PM »
Also, just about any post that is not, originally about Christianity is very quickly diverted to make it so! (With sapologies to Jean-Luc Picard!)
This thread is in the Christian topic and started off about a mother who thanked God for rescuing her son instead of the zoo staff. Why are you surprised it is about Christianity?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2016, 04:56:08 PM »
Yes, that's what I thought Jeremy.

Owl there are other forums that have nothing at all to do with Christianity where you would be unlikely to encounter a Christian thread.  This section is the Christian topic.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #153 on: July 24, 2016, 06:13:20 PM »
B and J

It isNO longer about a mother allowing her child yto get in a gorilla's enclosure and doing nothing except pry for him to be saved.

It has become as I have described and to take this argument to anywhere else is to attract unwelcome attention as it is seen to be attacking the poster and not the posts - which is what I am attempting to do!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #154 on: July 24, 2016, 08:17:42 PM »
Alright Owlswing.
There are plenty of threads that don't even touch on Christianity, this one does at least do that.
If you want to go back to the couple prying on a gorilla while their son was being eaten, or whatever it was about, I'm sure we can, with absolootly NO poisonal attacks or unwelcome onlookers.  Guides honour!
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #155 on: July 24, 2016, 08:56:18 PM »
You raised the case so it is reasonable to ask to present the details (as opposed to the unspecified anecdotes).

Not really. I am not the one doubting Andrew Wommacks word. So if you doubt then you need the reassurance not me. If you thought evidence existed to disprove what happened we both know nothing would stop you looking for it.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #156 on: July 24, 2016, 09:01:00 PM »
Why would I do your research for you?

I don't need you to do any research. I have done my own and I don't doubt Andrew you do.

So perhaps you need to decide what you need for evidence. I have mine.

Quote
If you provide a link to where I can see the death certificate and the report about the incident, I'll read it. So off you go.

What death certificate. As I have already logically shown no death certificate is produced the same day of death. The coroner has to do his bit first and show the cause.
Any educated person knows this. But subterfuge and nonsense seems to be the only thing you can grasp onto. Why not say something intelligent instead of something ridiculous?
]quote]
At the moment, his sounds like a bullshit story from an American evangelist preacher. American evangelists are more well known for their ability to gouge gullible Christians than telling the truth.
[/quote]

Whilst your too lazy and too willing to sit back and not look for proof, you have no right to disbelieve anything. In fact your reply is a poor attempt to hide the fact your too scared to even look.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #157 on: July 24, 2016, 09:02:51 PM »
Sass, no one has come back to life who is really and truly dead, that is not possible, and you have no evidence to support that claim.

Peter Wommack and the hospital have the evidence. See them.

Oh, but your not interested in evidence or facts...

As your replies show.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Hope

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25569
    • Tools With A Mission
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #158 on: July 24, 2016, 09:05:57 PM »
The gospels were written thirty to sixty years after the event. It seems unlikely that anybody would be left to come forward.
Yet archeologsts are coming up with bodies from 1000, even 2000 years ago which research suggests lived into their 60s and 70s.

(apologies for the capitals that were originally here - I hadn't realised that I'd activated the Caps Lock!)

Quote
Nobody has witnessed a dead man coming alive again.
There is documentary evidence of this in at least one Gospel, jeremy.

Quote
On the other hand, the effects of two days being dead in a hot climate have been witnessed. Jesus' brain would have been mush before he came back alive.
You are, of course, assuming that Jesus was merely a human being, which is a big claim.  You are also assuming that God/gods can't bypass the very natural laws which Christians and other religious people believe he/they created.

Quote
What do you mean by a test for authenticity? They certainly pass every test for being fictional.
Bearing in mind that truth can often be stranger than fiction, that claim is open to debate.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 09:09:02 PM by Hope »
Are your, or your friends'/relatives', garages, lofts or sheds full of unused DIY gear, sewing/knitting machines or fabric and haberdashery stuff?

Lists of what is needed and a search engine to find your nearest collector (scroll to bottom for latter) are here:  http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #159 on: July 24, 2016, 09:08:52 PM »
Not really. I am not the one doubting Andrew Wommacks word. So if you doubt then you need the reassurance not me. If you thought evidence existed to disprove what happened we both know nothing would stop you looking for it.

Nope - the burden of proof is yours since you've brought this to our attention.

As it stands, in the absence of any credible documentation, the only reasonable approach is to treat it as utter nonsense designed to appeal to the credulous.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #160 on: July 24, 2016, 09:18:33 PM »
Yet archeologsts are coming up with bodies from 1000, even 2000 years ago which research suggests lived into their 60s and 70s.

(apologies for the capitals that were originally here - I hadn't realised that I'd activated the Caps Lock!)

So what? That some people lived to ages that were unusual in those times doesn't imply that what they may or may not have said was true: there are the risks of mistakes and lies that you seem keen to avoid recognising.

Quote
There is documentary evidence of this in at least one Gospel, jeremy.

There are anecdotes of uncertain provenance.

Quote
You are, of course, assuming that Jesus was merely a human being, which is a big claim.

A routine claim, since there are no compelling reasons to believe otherwise given the risk of mistakes and lies in the accounts you set such store by.

Quote
You are also assuming that God/gods can't bypass the very natural laws which Christians and other religious people believe he/they created.

Reification fallacy, along with special pleading.

Quote
Bearing in mind that truth can often be stranger than fiction, that claim is open to debate.

To which you add some personal incredulity.

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #161 on: July 24, 2016, 09:30:08 PM »
I actually have quite a bit of experience of this during the first part of my NHS career: too much in fact. I'd imagine that the situation in the USA is similar to here in that death needs to be certified before mortuary staff will accept the 'customer'. In most cases of hospital deaths they are certified quite quickly, since the cause is required it needs a medic who has access to the case history and who needs to confirm that death has occurred and the cause, where the documentation in needed to register the death and arrange a funeral, and in the case of hospital deaths to remove the body from the clinical area where death occurred.

Death being certified is NOT the same as issuing a death certificate.
My Mother was a Nurse.  The Coroner confirms cause of death in a hospital. Whilst it may be an heart attack the cause is not always the same. Hence a death in hospital from injuries sustained in a car accident will not be explained by the doctor in attendance. The Coroner will having examined the body give the cause of death officially. Until the coroner makes the official decision then no death certificate or burial can take place.


Quote
You haven't set out the details, but if the claim is that the body was in the mortuary with tag-on-toe but there is no death certificate then it probably isn't true (given the business of the vested interests in the case).     

It is a fact that death certificates are not issued by the Emergency department when a person has died from injuries sustained in a car crash. The Coroner has to examine and determine what caused the death, to ensure no negligence by hospital. Time of death is recorded.
All tubes and drips remain in the body till the coroner removes them.

Quote
No facts have been offered.

What facts. Don't be so lazy if you want facts got to Andrew Wommack and get them.
Do your own research. You are the one in doubt.

Quote
You've yet to provide convincing evidence of the death, since if he wasn't dead then he wasn't resurrected.

He is alive... What other proof is there? Go to Andrew Wommack and the hospital if you want to have it confirmed. Truth is your too frightened and using this bumph above as an excuse because you know the hospital and Andrew Wommack will confirm it. Who is really crying wolf.


Quote
One answer is that in the absence of documentation this claim may be false.   

Well you have been told where to look. But we know your too scared and will keep making excuses...

Quote
When the death occurs in hospital it does, as I noted earlier. Rigor can begin after just a couple of hours so the examination of the body would be done fairly promptly - rigor starts first in the eyelids, jaw and neck and examination of the pupils is one of the key indicators of clinical death.

Rigor is affected by temperature and even if the person attacked or exercising at time of death.  Peter Wommack was in a car accident and had died from his injuries.
Rigor usually sets in within 1-3 hours he had been dead over 4 hours. It usually is gone within 24 hours.
 
Quote
Wrong - the certification of death requires a qualified medical practitioner, and in the UK it requires two separate examinations if a cremation is planned.

Actually when it is an expected death at home then the gp does not need to attend on death.
A different doctor attends at expected death and signs a document allowing the person to get a death certificate and also call the funeral directors the same day/night.
It happened with my grandmother when she died at home and we were caring for her.
As it was an expected death the GP was not required to return an a separate doctor attended after he death and gave us the necessary paper to register her death. The funeral directors came the same night and prepared her. Coming back the next morning as it was late. Leaving us time to be with her.
Quote
This doesn't sound remotely credible - bodies don't get into mortuaries unless death has been properly certified, and if they did then that would be  issue worthy of investigation.

Once a person dies in ER after an accident or anything. The body is removed to morgue for the coroner to do his work, But Andrew Wommack does not live in England, had you done any real research you would have known that. In fact your replies show you have NO idea who he is or where he comes from. TYPICAL.
Quote
So, where is the death certificate - since without it this story is exactly that: a story, and since you are championing it then we should expect you to present the essential details.

Did you get the information from a site because the hospitals don't work as you have said.
I know as my sister died from a brain brain hemorrhage she was a child and the diagnosis had been made before surgery and so her death did not require an autopsy he cause was known.
No certificate was given to us that day. The surgeon asked if he could reopen her head wound to see if they could learn anything which might help someone in the future. My mum allowed this to happen.
No two doctors needs to give us the paper to collect a death certificate.


Some times real life experiences give us more insight to hospital workings than  a small experience of working in the NHS.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #162 on: July 24, 2016, 09:38:04 PM »
He is alive... What other proof is there?

Might suggest that he wasn't dead in the first place.

By the way, you are getting confused between the certification of the death and the subsequent registration of the death.



Sebastian Toe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7701
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #163 on: July 24, 2016, 10:36:12 PM »
Might suggest that he wasn't dead in the first place.

It is possible that this was a sad case of misdiagnosis of death by the medical staff.
The 'deceased' would have been put in the morgue.
The distraught parent, believing his son to be dead, was amazed and mightily relieved when he 'awoke'/ 'came back'.

Given the fathers background, he attributed this as a 'miracle', in the biblical sense.

Now - I just need some one, anyone,  to prove that the above is not correct (cough ::))

ps
People arising from the dead Misdiagnoses of death - is not as uncommon as one might think!
https://www.guidelinesinpractice.co.uk/out_of_hours_hammond_jan01
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 11:12:50 PM by Sebastian Toe »
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends.'
Albert Einstein

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #164 on: July 24, 2016, 10:37:21 PM »
Sassy:  Peter Wommack and the hospital have the evidence. See them.

Can't find it anywhere!  Btw Peter Wommack's name is Jonathan Peter Wommack though he is known as "Peter".

If I could find the online records I would be glad.

Is he even still alive now?

Just seen Gordon's post and what he says is possible.  In which case the hospital staff would be reluctant to speak or publish anything about it.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #165 on: July 24, 2016, 11:53:32 PM »
Might suggest that he wasn't dead in the first place.

By the way, you are getting confused between the certification of the death and the subsequent registration of the death.

Quote

GORDON SAID:

So you'll have a link to the death certificate

You said clearly a link to the death certificate.


Quote
Gordon
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
 
Posts: 9810
View Profile  Personal Message (Online)

Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #136 on: Today at 01:57:04 PM »

Quote
Quote from: Sassy on Today at 01:14:01 PM
The hospital staff and doctors.

So you'll have a link to the death certificate, since these are public records. In addition, in the days of modern medicine, and assuming there is a death certificate, there will then be the investigation of the wrongly issued death certificate.

Too late to move the goal post. I was never confused I was replying to what you actuially said.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 11:56:43 PM by Sassy »
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #166 on: July 25, 2016, 12:00:05 AM »
I doubt we'd find a link to a death certificate on someone who lived.

We could however find records of his inpatient stay, his treatment, his falling into unconsciousness/death and subsequent revival, verified by the medical staff.  It cannot be confidential as Andrew Wommack talks about it so - where is it?

Some of the sites giving details about J Peter Wommack are scrambled, or you get something completely unassociated with Wommack.

There must be people, unrelated to the Wommacks, who were there and are prepared to give testimony to the event.

The wall of silence speaks volumes.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #167 on: July 25, 2016, 12:05:47 AM »
Too late to move the goal post. I was never confused I was replying to what you actuially said.

Pay attention: the death certificate which will include details of the person, the qualified medic who is certifying the death and related details (time, date etc) and the cause of death: the death certificate, without which there is no evidence this chap was ever dead.

Now, since you brought up this case, please provide a link to the death certificate. If you can't then we can assume the story is nonsense.

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #168 on: July 25, 2016, 12:07:09 AM »
I doubt we'd find a link to a death certificate on someone who lived.

We could however find records of his inpatient stay, his treatment, his falling into unconsciousness/death and subsequent revival, verified by the medical staff.  It cannot be confidential as Andrew Wommack talks about it so - where is it?

Some of the sites giving details about J Peter Wommack are scrambled, or you get something completely unassociated with Wommack.

There must be people, unrelated to the Wommacks, who were there and are prepared to give testimony to the event.

The wall of silence speaks volumes.

It does indeed.

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #169 on: July 25, 2016, 12:20:43 AM »
Pay attention: the death certificate which will include details of the person, the qualified medic who is certifying the death and related details (time, date etc) and the cause of death: the death certificate, without which there is no evidence this chap was ever dead.

Now, since you brought up this case, please provide a link to the death certificate. If you can't then we can assume the story is nonsense.

You pay attention. I told you the death certificate IS NOT ISSUED AT THE DAY OF DEATH.
He was raised to life within 24 hours of his death. That does not prove anything the medical records which record the time of death is what you need to go look for,
Go see Andrew Wommack and the hospital it is your search NOT MINE.

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11080
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #170 on: July 25, 2016, 12:23:45 AM »
Not really. I am not the one doubting Andrew Wommacks word. So if you doubt then you need the reassurance not me. If you thought evidence existed to disprove what happened we both know nothing would stop you looking for it.

As I previously said... you are the one who needs the proof not I. I did my research.

If you were interested in the truth or had ever searched for truth you would know where to look.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #171 on: July 25, 2016, 12:25:08 AM »
Let's get back to useless parents feeding their children to prying gorillas please.  We've exhausted Andrew Wommack and his family.  To think, I'd never heard of him before this thread!
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18205
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #172 on: July 25, 2016, 12:51:36 AM »
You pay attention. I told you the death certificate IS NOT ISSUED AT THE DAY OF DEATH.
He was raised to life within 24 hours of his death. That does not prove anything the medical records which record the time of death is what you need to go look for,
Go see Andrew Wommack and the hospital it is your search NOT MINE.

In other words this guy was never declared dead by a qualified clinician: therefore claims he was dead have no supporting evidence whatsoever. I can resurrect people who aren't yet dead, and so can you for that matter.

By the way you are wrong about the issuing of death certificate since they can be provided as soon as completed by the medic doing the certifying.

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #173 on: July 25, 2016, 02:37:41 AM »
http://tinyurl.com/zhqyzq9

Moderator: long URL replaced.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 07:32:23 AM by Gordon »
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

floo

  • Guest
Re: Why bother ringing 911?
« Reply #174 on: July 25, 2016, 08:20:46 AM »
Not really. I am not the one doubting Andrew Wommacks word. So if you doubt then you need the reassurance not me. If you thought evidence existed to disprove what happened we both know nothing would stop you looking for it.

Well you should be doubting it BIG TIME!