Why bother ringing 911?

[SteveH]

Whilst it is conceivable Jesus was crucified as he had made so many enemies, the resurrection story has no credibility to it whatsoever.

Translation: "I don't believe in the resurrection".    Millions of people seem to find it perfectly credible, and many of them are highly intelligent.

[Owlswing]

Translation: "I don't believe in the resurrection".    Millions of people seem to find it perfectly credible, and many of them are highly intelligent.

. . . in all other respects!

[Sassy]

In other words this guy was never declared dead by a qualified clinician:

He was declared dead and sent off to the morgue. Are you really going to try and hide your blunder by thinking you can make that statement and not look stupid?

therefore claims he was dead have no supporting evidence whatsoever.

The doctors signed the papers to send him to the morgue and pronounce him dead. DEATH CERTIFICATES ARE ISSUED BY THE REGISTRY OFFICE NOT THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN WHO ONLY SIGNS AND SENDS THE BODY TO MORGUE AND CORONER..
You make yourself look more stupid if you prolong the argument because you cannot admit you got it wrong.

I can resurrect people who aren't yet dead, and so can you for that matter.

He was dead.He was in the morgue and wearing toe tag in CANADA.
When his Father asked to see his SONS DEAD BODY he was took the morgue and he by the power of God resurrected him... It is easy it is just you and your refusal to accept facts.
You won't look or you already did and did not like finding it is true.

By the way you are wrong about the issuing of death certificate since they can be provided as soon as completed by the medic doing the certifying.

Not wrong at all... ONLY AN EXPECTED DEATH GETS A CERTIFICATE BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO REGISTER THE DEATH. THE CORONER IS NOT INVOLVED IN AN EXPECTED DEATH.
The funeral director can collect a body immediately.

The death of someone in an hospital from an accident or unexpected has to go to the coroner for the actual cause of death to be determined and an official register entry of cause of death.

Now everyone knows you know absolutely NOTHING about correct procedure from an unexpected death or accidental death as opposed to an expected death.You got it wrong accept it.

[jjohnjil]

Sassy, think about it ... Please!

If anyone in the world had resurrected a truly dead body, it would be headline news on every TV and radio station in the world and all over every newspaper!  It would make Brexit  look like a flower show report!

It certainly wouldn't be hidden away on a religious conman's own website!

[Sebastian Toe]

He was declared dead and sent off to the morgue.

Being declared dead and actually being dead are two very different things.
Medical staff can and do get this wrong sometimes.
Look up Lazarus syndrome for some examples where this has happened.

They obviously got it wrong in this instance.
And nobody can prove that they didn't get it wrong.

[floo]

He was declared dead and sent off to the morgue. Are you really going to try and hide your blunder by thinking you can make that statement and not look stupid?


The doctors signed the papers to send him to the morgue and pronounce him dead. DEATH CERTIFICATES ARE ISSUED BY THE REGISTRY OFFICE NOT THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN WHO ONLY SIGNS AND SENDS THE BODY TO MORGUE AND CORONER..
You make yourself look more stupid if you prolong the argument because you cannot admit you got it wrong.
He was dead.He was in the morgue and wearing toe tag in CANADA.
When his Father asked to see his SONS DEAD BODY he was took the morgue and he by the power of God resurrected him... It is easy it is just you and your refusal to accept facts.
You won't look or you already did and did not like finding it is true.
Not wrong at all... ONLY AN EXPECTED DEATH GETS A CERTIFICATE BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO REGISTER THE DEATH. THE CORONER IS NOT INVOLVED IN AN EXPECTED DEATH.
The funeral director can collect a body immediately.

The death of someone in an hospital from an accident or unexpected has to go to the coroner for the actual cause of death to be determined and an official register entry of cause of death.

Now everyone knows you know absolutely NOTHING about correct procedure from an unexpected death or accidental death as opposed to an expected death.You got it wrong accept it.

The doctors got it wrong if you are really dead you don't resurrect!

[Gordon]

Now everyone knows you know absolutely NOTHING about correct procedure from an unexpected death or accidental death as opposed to an expected death.You got it wrong accept it.

In most cases the death certification will be provided by medical practitioners who knew or treated the deceased, since it involves providing details on the cause of death and the person certifying the death. Where the cause is not immediately known, where the death is unexpected or relates to traumatic events, then the death certificate may be not be issued immediately until the cause is established, such as where a postmortem examination is mandatory.

You are still confusing medical certification that death has occurred, which is a prerequisite for the death to be registered, with the documents provided by the registration process. The term 'death certificate' is used colloquially to refer to the latter, which includes details of the cause of death etc, but this is only issued on production of the initial medical certification of death.

The regulations affecting Scotland make this distinction clear: http://tinyurl.com/zl6m5nk

1.2 The Functions of Death Certification

1.2.1 Death certification serves a number of functions. A Medical Certificate of
Cause of Death (Form 11 or “MCCD”), provided to the best of the medical
practitioner’s knowledge and belief, is a statutory requirement set out within the
Registration of Births, Deaths andMarriages (Scotland) Act 1965 (“the1965 Act”) of
any registered medical practitioner who was in attendance to the deceased during
their last illness. It provides a permanent legal record of the fact of death and
enables the family to register the death and arrange disposal of the body.

1.2.2 When a death is registered, the person reporting the death (“the informant”) is
given the Certificate of Registration of Death (Form 14 or “death certificate”), which
includes information given by the certifying doctor. This allows the funeral to go
ahead and the informant to settle the deceased’s estate. It also provides the
informant with their own permanent record of how, when and why their relative died.
This can contribute to information about family medical history, which may be
important for their own health and that of future generations.

So, going back to the Wommack claims - where is the formal documentation confirming death had occurred?

[floo]

Claims that people have come back from the dead are made very shortly after someone has supposedly died. It would be more interesting to meet someone who has been verifiably dead and disposed of by cremation, or burial, and who resurrects a few months or years later.

Isn't it strange that those who claim to have arisen from the dead don't make headline news?

[Maeght]

Sassy, is there any evidence for the Wommack resurrection other than Andrew Wommack saying it happened? If so what and where is it please?

[Sassy]

Sassy, think about it ... Please!

If anyone in the world had resurrected a truly dead body, it would be headline news on every TV and radio station in the world and all over every newspaper!  It would make Brexit  look like a flower show report!

It certainly wouldn't be hidden away on a religious conman's own website!

AGAIN... IT HAPPENED WITH CHRIST IN HIS TIME.

He raised Lazarus and today it is still talked about...

Does nothing to make you believe it was true though witnessed by many.

JESUS CHRIST... rose from the dead but 2,000 years on despite miracles and even others raised from the dead.
No one believes it...

King James Bible
But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

You see for centuries people have been brought back from the dead.

People have been cured by the power of God in Jesus Name.

The truth is as Abraham told Dives...

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Not you or anyone would be persuaded by someone rising from the dead. But here they won't even look for the truth.

In this life we are called to know and believe in the truth of Jesus Christ being the Son of God and dying so we might know God.
But there is also the fact one day this world will be so evil your freedom to choose will be removed by Satan having been forced to make the wrong choice freely.

You can either think like Satan or think like God. Rebellion against truth is SATANS way he thought his own way better.
The cause of men dying spiritually is down to Satan as will be the physical death brought in by Adam.

911 can't save those who are spiritually dead or dying.

[floo]

Just because something less than credible is featured in the Bible doesn't mean it is true, as there is no means of verifying it.

[Sassy]

Sasy, is there any evidence for the Wommack resurrection other than Andrew Wommack saying it happened? If so what and where is it please?

Hi Maeght,

Have you been to his site or the hospitals site?

You see you cannot make claims where hospitals are concerned if not true.

What you must not do, neither must others is place anyones faith as relying solely on these things.

My prayer is that God will always guide me into reliance on him and his words alone through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Mans faith cannot rely on the actions of others or other men in general. It must rely on God the source of all truth and the way in which he has given us his truth. Faith should be built upon solid rock foundations. God and his words which have it's source in man through the Holy Spirit. The Messiah Jesus Christ gave the final truth but even he declared his words were Spirit and they were life.

Faith is built on personal relationships with God and Christ forged in truth by the power and presence of Gods Holy Spirit.

Never rely on what others have done or said, always rely simply on God and his power and presence.

Each person requires a living faith with their God based on his truth. Full reliance on God in all things.

You too must search for your own evidence and decide what if any difference that evidence will make to yourself.
You are important and you need to know the measure of what you learn and how you will choose to apply it.

 

[floo]

Sass, if that guy had been really arisen from the dead it would have been headline news all other the planet, it wasn't. It is a less than credible claim by a guy who is a scam merchant if his web site is anything to go by!

[Maeght]

Hi Maeght,

Have you been to his site or the hospitals site?

I have seen the claims on his website but not found anything to support his claims elsewhere - which is why I asked the question. If you could say where this supporting evidence is (where the hospital gives its account of this for example)m this would help everyone.

You see you cannot make claims where hospitals are concerned if not true.

Why not?

What you must not do, neither must others is place anyones faith as relying solely on these things.

I've never suggested that - but if people put such things forward as evidence to support their beliefs they must accept people questioning that evidence.

My prayer is that God will always guide me into reliance on him and his words alone through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Mans faith cannot rely on the actions of others or other men in general. It must rely on God the source of all truth and the way in which he has given us his truth. Faith should be built upon solid rock foundations. God and his words which have it's source in man through the Holy Spirit. The Messiah Jesus Christ gave the final truth but even he declared his words were Spirit and they were life.

Faith is built on personal relationships with God and Christ forged in truth by the power and presence of Gods Holy Spirit.

Okay.

Never rely on what others have done or said, always rely simply on God and his power and presence.

Doesn't that also apply to claims such as this? Don't rely on what someone claims happened?

Each person requires a living faith with their God based on his truth. Full reliance on God in all things.

Not each person - only those who believe in God.

You too must search for your own evidence and decide what if any difference that evidence will make to yourself.

If someone says there is evidence for something then it is only reasonable to ask where that is.

You are important and you need to know the measure of what you learn and how you will choose to apply it.

 

Okay.

In summary, you have a faith and tend therefore to accept claims such as the one being discussed. Others without faith will question these claims. If you want such claims to encourage people of no faith to search and develop a faith then surely you need to present the evidence for the authenticity of the claims. If that is not what you intend then why present them at all?

[Spud]

I doubt there is any evidence for the claims Wommack makes about his son. An example of a healing that is documented is that of Dorothy Kerin, who as a young woman was on her deathbed with TB, and suddenly got up, went to the kitchen and started eating again. Before long she was fully fit. Her doctor verified that the condition she was in beforehand was terminal - I think possibly in a coma -, and it was reported in the newspapers. So sure was she that God had healed her that she set up a Christian nursing home, which expanded and is going strong today.

Edit: this is a more accurate description of what happened:
http://www.the-new-way.org/testimonies/guar_064_a_girl_miracle_cure.html

[floo]

So why should god heal her yet let children die, for instance?

[jjohnjil]

I doubt there is any evidence for the claims Wommack makes about his son. An example of a healing that is documented is that of Dorothy Kerin, who as a young woman was on her deathbed with TB, and suddenly got up, went to the kitchen and started eating again. Before long she was fully fit. Her doctor verified that the condition she was in beforehand was terminal - I think possibly in a coma -, and it was reported in the newspapers. So sure was she that God had healed her that she set up a Christian nursing home, which expanded and is going strong today.

Edit: this is a more accurate description of what happened:
http://www.the-new-way.org/testimonies/guar_064_a_girl_miracle_cure.html

This was a report of an incident over a hundred years ago, when medical science was in its infancy.  That a GP in those days had misdiagnosed some other ailment as TB isn't surprising, but even if this girl actually did have that terrible disease, she wasn't dead, so had never been resurrected.

That she put her 'cure' down to God is even less surprising, when you and Sassy do it for every unknown 'miracle'.  It's strange how you never blame God for the opposite happening ... an apparently perfectly healthy child/adult dropping dead. 

When a plane crashes, killing 200 people, all praying like mad to survive ... one crawls out and tells everyone how good God is for answering his/her prayer!

Ludicrous!

[ekim]

Here's an interesting article on diagnosis of death:   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19968625

[Sebastian Toe]

You see for centuries people have been brought back from the dead.

Being thought to be dead and actually being dead are two very different things.

People especially non-professionals (but professionals are not excluded) can and do get this wrong sometimes.

They obviously got it wrong in those instances.

And you cannot prove that they didn't get it wrong.

[Spud]

This was a report of an incident over a hundred years ago, when medical science was in its infancy.  That a GP in those days had misdiagnosed some other ailment as TB isn't surprising, but even if this girl actually did have that terrible disease, she wasn't dead, so had never been resurrected.

I've found the following info:
1912: health deteriorated at age 12 after death of her father.
Diphtheria three years later.
Not able to walk or eat solid food for five years.
Diagnosis of tubercular meningitis, tubercular peritonitis (depending on source) and diabetes.
Blindness and deafness caused by the above. Also hemorrhaging.
Body emaciated. Long periods of unconsciousness, pain while conscious.
No pulse detected for eight minutes before recovery (clinical death).
After waking up:
Able to get out of bed unassisted and walk down two flights of stairs.
Able to eat solid food.
Body 'plump and covered with flesh' next day.

[Spud]

So why should god heal her yet let children die, for instance?

She reported that an angel had appeared to her and told her she was well. Also she reports being given instructions to heal the sick. So a definite purpose for her healing.

She eventually died in 1963 though. We will all die, because of the Fall.

[wigginhall]

She reported that an angel had appeared to her and told her she was well. Also she reports being given instructions to heal the sick. So a definite purpose for her healing.

She eventually died in 1963 though. We will all die, because of the Fall.

I thought they were OK for a post-punk band.  Are you sure you're not confusing the Fall with the Cure?

[Maeght]

She reported that an angel had appeared to her and told her she was well. Also she reports being given instructions to heal the sick. So a definite purpose for her healing.

She eventually died in 1963 though. We will all die, because of the Fall.

If God saved her why would he need her to heal the sick ongoing?

[Spud]

If God saved her why would he need her to heal the sick ongoing?

As in, why not just heal other people directly? I'm not sure. I do know that her ministry involved what is called the laying on of hands, where she would pray for someone while laying hands on them. I suppose she would have said it was similar to when Jesus gave his disciples authority to heal sickness. That was all t do with announcing the good news of the kingdom of God, and demonstrating that he is the saviour.

[Maeght]

As in, why not just heal other people directly? I'm not sure. I do know that her ministry involved what is called the laying on of hands, where she would pray for someone while laying hands on them. I suppose she would have said it was similar to when Jesus gave his disciples authority to heal sickness. That was all t do with announcing the good news of the kingdom of God, and demonstrating that he is the saviour.

I understand she set up a number of hospitals which looked at the holistic approach to healing as well as 'Christian Healing' - but not sure exactly what the latter involved. If someone prays to be healed why do they need an intermediary and why would that be more effective in terms of announcing the good news than simply direct healing by God?

Do you see why someone who has no belief in God would see all this as humans assigning a divine cause to a natural process? We know that people do recover from illnesses which doctors have considered to be fatal, we know that people respond to the holistic approach and can certainly feel better at least if they think they are being healed, but although there are many stories and claims of miraculous healing there are very few cases, if any, with independent supporting evidence of any kind, so it comes down to belief in the end of the day.