Why bother ringing 911?

[Spud]

I understand she set up a number of hospitals which looked at the holistic approach to healing as well as 'Christian Healing' - but not sure exactly what the latter involved. If someone prays to be healed why do they need an intermediary and why would that be more effective in terms of announcing the good news than simply direct healing by God?

Do you see why someone who has no belief in God would see all this as humans assigning a divine cause to a natural process? We know that people do recover from illnesses which doctors have considered to be fatal, we know that people respond to the holistic approach and can certainly feel better at least if they think they are being healed, but although there are many stories and claims of miraculous healing there are very few cases, if any, with independent supporting evidence of any kind, so it comes down to belief in the end of the day.

I'd start by quoting James 5:13-16.

Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

[Maeght]

I'd start by quoting James 5:13-16.

Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Okay .... tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say that if you pray that God will heal directly rather than needing an intermediary?

I'm not really sure how quoting the bible helps answer my other question though.

[Spud]

Okay .... tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say that if you pray that God will heal directly rather than needing an intermediary?

I'm not really sure how quoting the bible helps answer my other question though.

I think it's saying that if you pray for a sick person, with faith, God will heal them. So the person who prays for the sick person is the intermediary.

Re: your other question,  yes, I do see why someone who has no belief in God would see all this as humans assigning a divine cause to a natural process. But if you believe in God, especially the biblical God who has revealed himself, then it's a different matter because he's in control.
 

We know that people do recover from illnesses which doctors have considered to be fatal, we know that people respond to the holistic approach and can certainly feel better at least if they think they are being healed, but although there are many stories and claims of miraculous healing there are very few cases, if any, with independent supporting evidence of any kind, so it comes down to belief in the end of the day.

Just one well-evidenced miraculous healing would be enough to prove a divine cause for that particular case.

[Hope]

Okay .... tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that say that if you pray that God will heal directly rather than needing an intermediary?

Aren't the person/people praying and the elders they are encouraged to call acting on God's behalf?  Not quite sure where you get the idea of 'diect healing' from, as far as the passage from James is concerned.

[Hope]

Do you see why someone who has no belief in God would see all this as humans assigning a divine cause to a natural process? We know that people do recover from illnesses which doctors have considered to be fatal, we know that people respond to the holistic approach and can certainly feel better at least if they think they are being healed, but although there are many stories and claims of miraculous healing there are very few cases, if any, with independent supporting evidence of any kind, so it comes down to belief in the end of the day.

Yes, it does come down to belief at the end of the day, but then so does so much of real life.  Even within the realm of science.  I'd probably go as far as to say that all of life is based on belief.

[Maeght]

I think it's saying that if you pray for a sick person, with faith, God will heal them. So the person who prays for the sick person is the intermediary.

Re reading it - it does seem to say that praying for others can leading to God healing. But the healing process mentioned for this woman referred to the 'laying on of hands' so slightly different. Why does it need other people to pray for someone for them to be healed though?

[Maeght]

Yes, it does come down to belief at the end of the day, but then so does so much of real life.  Even within the realm of science.  I'd probably go as far as to say that all of life is based on belief.

Depends on what you mean by belief really. If you would say that accepting that something which is well attested and measured by external means is likely to happen routinely then everything is a belief e.g. that the sun will rise in the morning, if I drop something it will fall to the ground etc. Are those beliefs? I don't really see an equivalence between religious beliefs and the realm of science - can you give examples of equivalent beliefs in science?

[Maeght]

The point about it being down to belief though comes from the way that such claims are presented as facts by certain people and used as evidence of the divine, when really it is people who have a religious belief who see these as being  true events based on personal testimony only because it agrees with their preexisting beliefs. Because people have a faith they are more likely to accept such claims as being true, if you have no faith you are unlikely too. Just one well-evidenced miraculous healing would be evidence for a divine cause for that particular case but not really proof. Science doesn't do proofs. The evidence cannot just be personal claims or testimony however. There would need to be a basis of what can occur without prayer etc as a baseline too which would require a lot of statistical analysis. Is there a well scientifically evidenced case of healing which could not possibly be natural?

[Spud]

Re reading it - it does seem to say that praying for others can leading to God healing.

With the James passage, we should not take it to mean that it is the same today. The miracles performed by Jesus and the apostles were apparently a temporary sign given so that they would know he was sent from God.

I think the ministry of Dorothy Kerin was maybe a unique one, in that she was healed miraculously; and in that she received a vision in which she was called to heal others. It seems it was more to do with the holistic approach to healing that you mentioned: body, mind and spirit. I think at the hospital/chapel now they are aware that the miracles attributed to the early church were not intended to be ongoing, and that a person can experience what they call 'healing and wholeness' while not necessarily being free from a disease.

But the healing process mentioned for this woman referred to the 'laying on of hands' so slightly different. Why does it need other people to pray for someone for them to be healed though?

I think the principle is that in asking for prayer, a sick person displays his faith, and in confessing sin shows he has humbled himself. Since sin and guilt can be a factor in illness, that aspect of it is then dealt with through the others praying for him.

[floo]

To suggest 'sin' has anything to do with illness is RIDICULOUS! A member of my extended family was told his mental illness was caused by his 'sin', and he would be cured if he repented. He was so upset he tried to top himself!

[Maeght]

With the James passage, we should not take it to mean that it is the same today. The miracles performed by Jesus and the apostles were apparently a temporary sign given so that they would know he was sent from God.

Okay.

I think the ministry of Dorothy Kerin was maybe a unique one, in that she was healed miraculously;

She recovered.

... and in that she received a vision in which she was called to heal others.

She claimed.

It seems it was more to do with the holistic approach to healing that you mentioned: body, mind and spirit.

Indeed. And the hospitals set up continue in the approach today.

I think at the hospital/chapel now they are aware that the miracles attributed to the early church were not intended to be ongoing, and that a person can experience what they call 'healing and wholeness' while not necessarily being free from a disease.

Right. Not really healing then.

I think the principle is that in asking for prayer, a sick person displays his faith, and in confessing sin shows he has humbled himself. Since sin and guilt can be a factor in illness, that aspect of it is then dealt with through the others praying for him.

If a person prays themselves wouldn't this display faith just as much? Suggesting sin is a factor in illness is not something I could consider.

[Spud]

Hi Maeght
As an example of sin causing illness; what about staying on the internet for too long and getting a slipped disc because of it?
You could of course say this is better described simply as foolishness. I think that's the kind of thing James is suggesting one could confess to.

I'm not sure whether 'no detectable pulse for eight minutes' actually indicates clinical death. There is no mention of her stopping breathing. But it is clear that her body had some kind of kick start, and if she did have a vision, maybe she had fought off the infection but this was not apparent to the observers.

[floo]

Hi Maeght
As an example of sin causing illness; what about staying on the internet for too long and getting a slipped disc because of it?
You could of course say this is better described simply as foolishness. I think that's the kind of thing James is suggesting one could confess to.

I'm not sure whether 'no detectable pulse for eight minutes' actually indicates clinical death. There is no mention of her stopping breathing. But it is clear that her body had some kind of kick start, and if she did have a vision, maybe she had fought off the infection but this was not apparent to the observers.

How could staying on the Internet too long be a 'sin', for pity's sake? How on earth does one get a slipped disc by doing so?

[Brownie]

Posture problems floo.  I don't know about a slipped disc specifically but people do experience quite severe musculo-skeletal problems if they spend a large amount of time in front of a computer, eg working.  Couple that with talking on the 'phone, held between side of face and shoulder while you type, and you could end up quite disabled, at least for a while.  It's very common.

The traditional understanding regarding the correlation between sin and illness is that, at the fall, man allowed sin into the world after which all the bad stuff poured in, illness being part of it,  not that anyone is ill as a direct result of their own sin (though that could be the case in some instances).

[Maeght]

Hi Maeght
As an example of sin causing illness; what about staying on the internet for too long and getting a slipped disc because of it?
You could of course say this is better described simply as foolishness. I think that's the kind of thing James is suggesting one could confess to.

I'm not sure whether 'no detectable pulse for eight minutes' actually indicates clinical death. There is no mention of her stopping breathing. But it is clear that her body had some kind of kick start, and if she did have a vision, maybe she had fought off the infection but this was not apparent to the observers.

Hi Spud,

How long is 'too long' for it to be considered a sin? Sorry, but that doesn't sound a very convincing example.

Who didn't have a detectable pulse for eight minutes?

[Hope]

She recovered.

So, was this something to do with the medical care she was given?  Or was it something that occurred with no scientific explanation?  Has any medic investigated the circumstances to see whether scientific medicine could heal her, if she was to present to a doctor today?

Right. Not really healing then.

Why 'not really healing then'?  Are you saying that 'healing' has necessarily to be 1) merely physical and 2) total?  What about those who have untreatable conditions and are, understandably, fearful of the future.  If that fear is overcome, isn't that healing?

If a person prays themselves wouldn't this display faith just as much? Suggesting sin is a factor in illness is not something I could consider.

It might well be worth your rethinking your position, then, Maeght.  What about the driver who is driving at, say, 60mph in a built-up area where the speed limit is 30, perhaps even 20; loses control of the car and has an accident causing serious injury to themself.  After a while, their injuries lead to kidney failure.  Are you honestly suggesting that 'sin' (aka wrongdoing) isn't a factor in that illness?

Or, what about the child who develops lung cancer as a result of living with and inhaling the exhalations of two heavy smoker parents?  Isn't the condition tied to the 'sin' of those parents - especially if they have been warned about the potential consequences by friends and medics and refused to act on that advice?

[Spud]

Hope,

Thanks for your input. The person in question is Dorothy Kerin. In 1912 she recovered from what was diagnosed as tuberculous meningitis, having lost her sight and hearing and been unable to walk for 5 years. She was near death, but 16 people witnessed her get up and walk downstairs, having suddenly recovered from all the symptoms. She set up Burrswood healing centre in the south east, having received instructions during a vision at the time of her recovery to heal the sick. If you google there is quite a bit about her, although I think the details are written down in books authored by her and her friends.

Maeght, it was her that had no detectable pulse for 8 minutes.

[Hope]

Hope,

Thanks for your input. The person in question is Dorothy Kerin. In 1912 she recovered from what was diagnosed as tuberculous meningitis, having lost her sight and hearing and been unable to walk for 5 years. She was near death, but 16 people witnessed her get up and walk downstairs, having suddenly recovered from all the symptoms. She set up Burrswood healing centre in the south east, having received instructions during a vision at the time of her recovery to heal the sick. If you google there is quite a bit about her, although I think the details are written down in books authored by her and her friends.

Maeght, it was her that had no detectable pulse for 8 minutes.

Hi Spud; have to admit to having never heard of her before this thread was under-way, but I googled her up before posting my last post.  My questions were to Maeght, in the hope that she'd be able to provide a scientific/medical explanation of her 'recovery' - after all, by using that term, Maeght is clearly seeking to dismiss the idea of the miraculous.

[Spud]

How long is 'too long' for it to be considered a sin? Sorry, but that doesn't sound a very convincing example.

Long enough to feel pain and ignore it? I guess the joints most vulnerable computing injuries are in the neck. Perhaps a better example is smoking and lung disease. Or alcohol abuse and stomach ulcers

[Maeght]

So, was this something to do with the medical care she was given?  Or was it something that occurred with no scientific explanation?  Has any medic investigated the circumstances to see whether scientific medicine could heal her, if she was to present to a doctor today?

I can't answer that. I pointed out earlier that for any case to be considered as not naturally possible would require a great deal of data and analysis which I don't think has been done.

Why 'not really healing then'?  Are you saying that 'healing' has necessarily to be 1) merely physical and 2) total?

My understanding of the word healing is to mean restoration of health or recovery from illness or injury - and this appears to me to be the more common meaning amongst people who talk of God healing people - at least that seems to be what the TV evangelists mean - 'throw down your sticks and walk'. Healing can refer to easing of a condition is but is that what is claimed or meant when Christian healing is mentioned.

What about those who have untreatable conditions and are, understandably, fearful of the future.  If that fear is overcome, isn't that healing?

I wouldn't probably use that term, no. Relief, yes but not healing. The case mentioned was a recovery from illness, not relief.

It might well be worth your rethinking your position, then, Maeght.

Always open to that.

What about the driver who is driving at, say, 60mph in a built-up area where the speed limit is 30, perhaps even 20; loses control of the car and has an accident causing serious injury to themself.  After a while, their injuries lead to kidney failure.  Are you honestly suggesting that 'sin' (aka wrongdoing) isn't a factor in that illness?

Is that what Spud meant? Doing something illegal and getting injured?

Or, what about the child who develops lung cancer as a result of living with and inhaling the exhalations of two heavy smoker parents?  Isn't the condition tied to the 'sin' of those parents - especially if they have been warned about the potential consequences by friends and medics and refused to act on that advice?

Why are you saying 'sin' rather than sin? Is that because the examples you are giving aren't really what is usually meant by sin?

My questions were to Maeght, in the hope that she'd be able to provide a scientific/medical explanation of her 'recovery' - after all, by using that term, Maeght is clearly seeking to dismiss the idea of the miraculous.

I am dismissing nothing but nor am I accepting unsupported claims and stories as evidence of the divine. That Kerin recovered is a statement of fact. I have made no claim about it - whereas those who have described it as miraculous have. If think it was can you show that it was miraculous and not possibly natural? And I'm not a she!

[Maeght]

Long enough to feel pain and ignore it? I guess the joints most vulnerable computing injuries are in the neck. Perhaps a better example is smoking and lung disease. Or alcohol abuse and stomach ulcers

That's how long it takes to cause pain. The dictionary definition of sin is 'an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law' - do the things you mention meat that definition?

[floo]

Hope,

Thanks for your input. The person in question is Dorothy Kerin. In 1912 she recovered from what was diagnosed as tuberculous meningitis, having lost her sight and hearing and been unable to walk for 5 years. She was near death, but 16 people witnessed her get up and walk downstairs, having suddenly recovered from all the symptoms. She set up Burrswood healing centre in the south east, having received instructions during a vision at the time of her recovery to heal the sick. If you google there is quite a bit about her, although I think the details are written down in books authored by her and her friends.

Maeght, it was her that had no detectable pulse for 8 minutes.

Even if all those details are factual, it doesn't mean god was responsible, people do make unexpected recoveries from time to time.

[Spud]

To suggest 'sin' has anything to do with illness is RIDICULOUS! A member of my extended family was told his mental illness was caused by his 'sin', and he would be cured if he repented. He was so upset he tried to top himself!

Is he a Christian? If not, probably not a good idea to tell him that. If yes, maybe it was the way he was told it that upset him.

[floo]

Is he a Christian? If not, probably not a good idea to tell him that. If yes, maybe it was the way he was told it that upset him.

He is a Christian, but it was still a load of crazy unsubstantiated garbage! The person who told upset him in that way was condemned by other Christians who also thought that statement stupid.

[Spud]

Even if all those details are factual, it doesn't mean god was responsible, people do make unexpected recoveries from time to time.

Yes, was reading about tuberculosis and its complications last night. So apparently the infection had spread to her intestine and meninges. Perhaps the thing that made people think it was miraculous is that afterwards there was no sign that she had suffered the lesions or symptoms. If you think about how a skin lesion takes time to heal, and that afterwards you still have a visible scar, it just seems difficult to believe that the tissue damage caused by Dorothy's condition would have disappeared overnight. The fact that it did is what amazed the doctors at the time.