Answers to prayers?

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/parents-prayed-for-two-hours-as-their-son-lay-dying-before-calling-ambulance/ar-BBtP4Tx?ocid=spartandhp

[Rhiannon]

That's an appalling thing.

But I'm not sure what you are asking.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

That's an appalling thing.

But I'm not sure what you are asking.

Well, apparently they prayed. Why wouldn't God answer?

[Rhiannon]

A more valid question might be, why didn't God remove the poor boy from that atrocious situation in the first place?

[Owlswing]

The boy had apparently been diagnosed Type 1 diabetic some years ago but his parents refused to believe the diagnosis and refused to administer insulin or allow him to self-administer it.

The boy had been taken into care on several occassions but each time, after his parents had attended education classes in how to treat his disease, he was returned.

The State/Province Government eventually obtained a Court Order to remove the boy from his parents but when the police arrived at their home they had fled to another State/Province where he died with a blood sugar level of less than 1.4 - the recommended minimum safe level is 4.0.

It is because they withheld his medication that they are being charged with first degree (premeditated) murder.

[floo]

What evil scum those people are!

[Khatru]

A more valid question might be, why didn't God remove the poor boy from that atrocious situation in the first place?

Ah, he has previous form in not removing children from harm's way.

In one well known example, instead of saving children from being sacrificed to one of his rivals, the Bible god arranges it so that the children get eaten by their parents.

[floo]

If you think prayer might help, pray, but ensure you have medical attention as well for when god decides not to come through as is more often the case. Prayer is like touching wood, and no more effective, imo.

[ippy]

Pathetic!

ippy

[floo]

People who thank god when someone is cured of their ailments, should be asking themselves when they don't blame it when a person isn't cured, and also why it so often stays its hand in such as despicable way? Now I wait for the excuses!

[jeremyp]

What evil scum those people are!

No, I think that they are merely stupid and deluded. The evil scum are the ones that persuaded them that prayer is a valid response to life threatening illness.

[Harrowby Hall]

It provides an intriguing alternative interpretation of:

Suffer the little children to come unto me.

[Leonard James]

No, I think that they are merely stupid and deluded. The evil scum are the ones that persuaded them that prayer is a valid response to life threatening illness.

Yes, I agree. But in all fairness I think they, too, believe it, despite the contrary evidence.

[Hope]

No, I think that they are merely stupid and deluded. The evil scum are the ones that persuaded them that prayer is a valid response to life threatening illness.

The problem is that there are occasions when medical science states that a person has no hope of recovery, yet recover they do.  Are we to take it that medical science isn't to be trusted?

[Hope]

Well, apparently they prayed. Why wouldn't God answer?

Well, apparently there are people called doctors, nurses and paramedics who God would have been abe to answer through had the parents called in the first place.  To use this as an argument that prayer doesn't work is a pretty poor argument.  If the details of the case, as outlined in the article, are correct, then the use of such a story is even less valid in regard to the validity of prayer.  It can be argued that their long-term treatment of the boy was both contrary to what I assume would have been the aim of their prayers and - perhaps more importantly - very unChristian in the first place.

[Hope]

A more valid question might be, why didn't God remove the poor boy from that atrocious situation in the first place?

As has been pointed out in the past, God works through people.  Do we actually know the full details of the situation?  Was the house ever visited by social workers?  Did the parents ever allow people to visit the house, and consequently, did anyone actually see the state the boy was in?  Unfortunately, the detail in this particular report doesn't cover all the bases.  If the detail given is correct I, as a Christian, would agree with the suggestion that they be found guilty of 1st degree murder.

[Hope]

People who thank god when someone is cured of their ailments, should be asking themselves when they don't blame it when a person isn't cured, and also why it so often stays its hand in such as despicable way? Now I wait for the excuses!

I think that you misunderstand what many people pray for, Floo.  Whilst some will pray, exclusively, for healing (and often from selfish motives) most will pray that God will do what is best for the person concerned.  That might be a full recovery, it might be death, it might be for somewhere in between.  At the same time, healing can take a whole range of aspects.  It can be physical, it can be mental; it can have to do with the attitude of the sick person towards themselves or towards others - ie who is to blame for the situation they find themselves in; it can be to do with how they have treated themselves or how others have treated them, etc.

Prayer is seldom as simplistic as you, and most prayer-research, like to make out.

[floo]

There is no evidence any god is on the other end of the prayer phone line.

[Hope]

There is no evidence any god is on the other end of the prayer phone line.

Evidence for this claim, please, Floo.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Just to note that, in an interview with today's Sunday Telegraph, prospective Tory leader and Prime Minister Andrea Leadsom tells us she's a "very committed Christian" who prays "a lot".

Oh great. And there was me thinking things couldn't get much worse. Imagine the scene: Trump and Putin squaring off, the world in mortal danger and UN Security Council member and nuclear power the UK has to decide how to respond. A calm head, deep understanding of the issues and exceptional judgment are essential here, and where's a our putative leader at this critical time?

Yup, on her knees praying to her imaginary friend for her orders.

Terrific eh? 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Evidence for this claim, please, Floo.

Ooh, and our Hope collapses yet again back into his favourite negative proof fallacy.

Just like old times here again innit?

[Hope]

Ooh, and our Hope collapses yet again back into his favourite negative proof fallacy.

Just like old times here again innit?

Sorry, bhs; Floo made a statement.  I have asked for evidence in support of that statement.  That is not the NPF.  Incidentally, I have provided evidence earlier in the thread for why a belief in the efficacy of prayer is logical and reasonable.

[Gordon]

Prayer is seldom as simplistic as you, and most prayer-research, like to make out.

In what ways are the methods adopted by researchers studying prayer inadequate: presumably you have critiqued these studies to be able to say this, so what are these researchers missing (methodologically speaking)? 

[floo]

Evidence for this claim, please, Floo.

Hope, as you have been told so often, you are the one who has to provide evidence for your assertions of the less than credible. The default position must be scepticism until verifiable evidence is obtained.

If I said I had seen a unicorn in my garden, for instance, you could then ask for proof.

[Hope]

Hope, as you have been told so often, you are the one who has to provide evidence for your assertions of the less than credible. The default position must be scepticism until verifiable evidence is obtained.

No, all I have to do is provide evidence that indicates that my assertions aren't ridiculous, illogical and unreasonable.

The same applies to Floo and others.

Furthermore, when one refers to verifiability, one has to assume that the means by which we verify claims are actually able to test every possible option.  It is clear that science isn't able to verify non-natural events and issues, despite the fact that life includes such things.  In other words, the scientific method isn't the only, let alone necessarily the best means of verifying things.