Author Topic: Answers to prayers?  (Read 47533 times)

Should God have intervened?

Yes
3 (75%)
No
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Author Topic: Answers to prayers?  (Read 47533 times)

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #175 on: July 11, 2016, 01:05:39 AM »
More downright nonsense, or you aren't thinking this through: the right to be legally married is a given (here in the UK) and exists independently of any actions an individual takes towards marriage.

Therefore anyone who meets the legal requirements to marry (here in the UK) has the right to do so even if, like my younger daughter,  they have no current intentions to marry and are taking no current actions whatsoever directed towards becoming married.

You are, quite simply, wrong again.     
Correct, we all have the right to be married but do we have the right to redefine what marriage is?

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #176 on: July 11, 2016, 03:36:06 AM »
Laws are forever being redefined, Spud.  We only have to look back through history.  Even in my lifetime some have been redefined or completely changed.  There is no reason at all why marriage cannot be redefined and that has happened.  Why not just put your personal feelings aside and accept it, nobody says you have to like it, that is your business, but it is probably here to stay.  There are plenty more important issues to be concerned with.  You can live your life without being inconvenienced by this particular change in the law.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #177 on: July 11, 2016, 04:46:57 AM »
Correct, we all have the right to be married but do we have the right to redefine what marriage is?

Yes we do: marriage is a social/legal convention that is whatever we decide it is. As such it isn't static or uniform over time or across cultures, as has been demonstrated by notable changes recently.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #178 on: July 11, 2016, 06:48:23 AM »
Sorry torri, its both.  In exactly the same way that people have the potential to be jealous, to lie, to get angry, to defraud, to murder,  etc.; everyone is also in a position to hold back from the commission of that potential.

What you do flows from what you are and individuals by and large are not the architects of their own being. I fail to see the justification for in effect punishing entire vertical sectors of society for being what they are; in what way does arguing in favour of discriminatory practices that condemn segments of society to diminished rights augur for a happier world ?

Owlswing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #179 on: July 11, 2016, 07:45:26 AM »

What you do flows from what you are and individuals by and large are not the architects of their own being. I fail to see the justification for in effect punishing entire vertical sectors of society for being what they are; in what way does arguing in favour of discriminatory practices that condemn segments of society to diminished rights augur for a happier world ?


Spud and Hope do not care about a "happier world"; they are only intersted in seeing the "laws" of their God being followed so that THEY can be happy.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 09:53:10 AM by Owlswing »
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

floo

  • Guest
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #180 on: July 11, 2016, 08:19:05 AM »
Oddly enough, you seem to be very good at doing just that, Floo - or the equivalent in terms of actions.

Really and what words have I put into its mouth?

Brownie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3858
  • Faith evolves
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #181 on: July 11, 2016, 08:30:59 AM »
He did say:"...the equivalent in terms of actions.", floo.
Good morning btw, aren't we early today?  I was up at the crack of dawn but not properly awake yet.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

floo

  • Guest
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #182 on: July 11, 2016, 08:45:37 AM »
He did say:"...the equivalent in terms of actions.", floo.
Good morning btw, aren't we early today?  I was up at the crack of dawn but not properly awake yet.

This is about the usual time for me, my computer goes on after 8am daily. I have already had my two walks of the day. I get up at 6.15am, but usually in bed before 9pm.

Étienne d'Angleterre

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #183 on: July 11, 2016, 08:47:09 AM »
Hope,

A while back I posted this in reply to Stephen:

Is there anything about that that's not the case?

How do you feel about that?

In particular he doesn't seem to want to go anywhere near replies #40 and #50.

I have raised the issues with his position on a previous thread but not even an attempt at a reply has been made.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #184 on: July 11, 2016, 09:15:29 AM »
Spud,

Quote
Correct, we all have the right to be married but do we have the right to redefine what marriage is?

If by "we" you mean "society", then yes of course. Societal norms about slavery, votes for women etc have changed completely in the past, and there's no reason to treat marriage as a special case. Marriage only for heterosexuals doesn't exist as an objective rule of nature like gravity or magnetism - it's just another social convention that can be changed if enough people want it to be. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 11:27:51 AM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #185 on: July 11, 2016, 11:38:26 AM »
Thanks blue and brown for being nice. I have more to say in answer to your replies, but a bit too busy to sit and write thoughtfully,.but will do so asap.

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #186 on: July 11, 2016, 11:56:54 AM »
Spud,

Quote
Thanks blue and brown for being nice. I have more to say in answer to your replies, but a bit too busy to sit and write thoughtfully,.but will do so asap.

By all means do, but I'd also suggest that it's a bad idea to cling to a mistake because you've invested heavily in making it. Either you think that societies that practice equality are better than those that don't, or you do not. And if you do, there's nothing else to discuss about the desirability of gay marriage.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #187 on: July 11, 2016, 01:57:10 PM »
This is just legislating to validate your own prejudices.  If you felt 'wronged' rather than disappointed, that is something for you to deal with.  But rather than deal with your own issues you would rather force the rest of humanity to accept your prejudices.  I think you should man up; live and let live.
Indeed, and as with divorce, we have to let people do what they want to do. But that means a trend towards disorder, since divorce has negative consequences for the family and society. Not in all cultures, since divorce is rare in some.

floo

  • Guest
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #188 on: July 11, 2016, 02:01:25 PM »
Indeed, and as with divorce, we have to let people do what they want to do. But that means a trend towards disorder, since divorce has negative consequences for the family and society. Not in all cultures, since divorce is rare in some.

Far better to divorce than stay in an unhappy marriage that is for sure. I remember begging my parents to divorce when I was about 15, as they never got on at all. They stuck it out for 58 turbulent years, but it would have been far better for all of us if they had called it a day, imo.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #189 on: July 11, 2016, 02:11:33 PM »
Indeed, and as with divorce, we have to let people do what they want to do. But that means a trend towards disorder, since divorce has negative consequences for the family and society. Not in all cultures, since divorce is rare in some.

There can also be negative consequences arising from forcing people to stay together when their relationship is irrevocably broken; such decisions are deeply personal and I don't see that the State should be interfering in such messy personal circumstances beyond offering means of support and facilitation towards optimal outcomes whatever they may be.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #190 on: July 11, 2016, 02:13:34 PM »
Yes we do: marriage is a social/legal convention that is whatever we decide it is. As such it isn't static or uniform over time or across cultures, as has been demonstrated by notable changes recently.

quote from bluehillside:
Quote
Marriage only for heterosexuals doesn't exist as an objective rule of nature like gravity or magnetism - it's just another social convention that can be changed if enough people want it to be.


What I wanted to say is that a fundamental purpose of marriage, as well as for the companionship it promotes, is to bind a man and a woman together for life so that their offspring will have the best possible upbringing. Now someone will say what about infertile couples etc. But the principle still stands, in the same way that incest is still incest whether a woman is able to conceive or is infertile.
So the result of including people of the same sex in the institution of marriage is that there is now no institution which has for all its participants the above principle in view, that is, to tie a child to both of its biological parents. This can only increase disorder in society, and is why civil partnerships are the best option for people who want the legal rights associated with marriage.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 02:16:47 PM by Spud »

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #191 on: July 11, 2016, 02:23:49 PM »
I'll throw this in as a follow up to my previous post: The reason I think I felt it was unjust for a woman I liked to prefer another woman is that she was committing an offence against the principle of a woman giving a man not only the necessary help he needs, and being given back the help she needs in life, but also the gift of procreation, which she withheld from not just me but the whole of society.

Étienne d'Angleterre

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #192 on: July 11, 2016, 02:27:02 PM »
quote from bluehillside:

What I wanted to say is that a fundamental purpose of marriage, as well as for the companionship it promotes, is to bind a man and a woman together for life so that their offspring will have the best possible upbringing.

That is one opinion. Others are available.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #193 on: July 11, 2016, 02:28:38 PM »
Far better to divorce than stay in an unhappy marriage that is for sure. I remember begging my parents to divorce when I was about 15, as they never got on at all. They stuck it out for 58 turbulent years, but it would have been far better for all of us if they had called it a day, imo.
The Bible would say it is better for a couple to separate with a view to reconciliation, but that's another matter.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7133
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2016, 02:29:48 PM »
That is one opinion. Others are available.
As well as for companionship, it is the historical basis on which marriage law is founded, if I am not mistaken.

Étienne d'Angleterre

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #195 on: July 11, 2016, 02:43:41 PM »
As well as for companionship, it is the historical basis on which marriage law is founded, if I am not mistaken.

If you want companionship you should get a cat.
You make it sounds like some form of minor add-on. For many people who are married, children have nothing to do with it. Why do you wish to force your interpretation on them. Should they not have been allowed to marry in your view?

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #196 on: July 11, 2016, 02:45:36 PM »
Spud,

Quote
What I wanted to say is that a fundamental purpose of marriage, as well as for the companionship it promotes, is to bind a man and a woman together for life so that their offspring will have the best possible upbringing. Now someone will say what about infertile couples etc. But the principle still stands, in the same way that incest is still incest whether a woman is able to conceive or is infertile.
So the result of including people of the same sex in the institution of marriage is that there is now no institution which has for all its participants the above principle in view, that is, to tie a child to both of its biological parents. This can only increase disorder in society, and is why civil partnerships are the best option for people who want the legal rights associated with marriage.

You're very confused.

First, "fundamental purposes" can change. Slavery and disenfranchising women were once fundamental purposes for some, but like any other social conventions they were changeable. There's no reason in principle to treat marriage differently.

Second, there's no reason to think that same sex couples cannot provide "the best possible upbringing". Better for example that a caring and involved same sex couple raise a child than that an indifferent and disconnected heterosexual couple do it.

Third, including same sex couples in the convention of marriage makes no difference whatever to the principle that children deserve the best possible upbringings. The only possible difference is a positive one - by showing children that their families are not inferior or less deserving of respect than any other. The sexual orientation of the parents is in other words irrelevant whereas other issues that have nothing to do with that matter a great deal.

Fourth, opening up the strengths of marriage to any couples who love each other and wish to commit can only strengthen order in society, not diminish it.   
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #197 on: July 11, 2016, 02:49:50 PM »
Spud,

Quote
I'll throw this in as a follow up to my previous post: The reason I think I felt it was unjust for a woman I liked to prefer another woman is that she was committing an offence against the principle of a woman giving a man not only the necessary help he needs, and being given back the help she needs in life, but also the gift of procreation, which she withheld from not just me but the whole of society.

And your confusion continues.

First, there is no such principle. It's just a belief you happen to have, and an unwarranted one at that.

Second, there are plenty of people to procreate - too many some would say - and she didn't "withhold" anything. Her sexual orientation wasn't a choice, and for all you knew she may in any case have wanted to conceive later on by other means.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Gordon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18265
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #198 on: July 11, 2016, 03:03:13 PM »
What I wanted to say is that a fundamental purpose of marriage, as well as for the companionship it promotes, is to bind a man and a woman together for life so that their offspring will have the best possible upbringing.

Whose prescription is this? I don't recall when I got married (in 1974, before my 22nd birthday) even discussing children with Mrs G (to whom I am still married). I can't understand your need to be so formulaic about marriage.   

Quote
Now someone will say what about infertile couples etc. But the principle still stands, in the same way that incest is still incest whether a woman is able to conceive or is infertile.

I think you are doubly wrong here: first on the 'principle' you seem attached to, and second that marriage has some parallel with incest.
 
Quote
So the result of including people of the same sex in the institution of marriage is that there is now no institution which has for all its participants the above principle in view, that is, to tie a child to both of its biological parents.

Nope: the 'institution' as you'd prefer to define simply isn't what you'd like it to be: reality is rather different, just as people are different.

While children are important to those that want or already have them, or would like in future or perhaps they can't or simply don't want to be parents: so children aren't essentially important to everyone who is married. In addition, children grow up to be adults: my three children are aged 35, 32 and 27 but I'm still married to their mother (and hope to be for some time yet). Marriage is what people want it to be, and what they make of it, and it isn't bound by your prescriptive approach.

Quote
This can only increase disorder in society, and is why civil partnerships are the best option for people who want the legal rights associated with marriage.

If people want marriage then that is what they should have - it is their decision (if they meet the legal requirements).

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19469
Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #199 on: July 11, 2016, 03:35:45 PM »
Spud,

Just out of interest, how would you explain to this young man that he hadn't had the best possible upbringing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ



"Don't make me come down there."

God