Author Topic: Answers to prayers?  (Read 47584 times)

Should God have intervened?

Yes
3 (75%)
No
1 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 3

Author Topic: Answers to prayers?  (Read 47584 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #225 on: July 11, 2016, 10:21:09 PM »
Just as your output on this forum comes from the horses other rear-end orifice!
Touche..........

Hope

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #226 on: July 11, 2016, 10:22:44 PM »
Interesting as all this is, it is a bit off topic. I notice Hope is online so will we get and answer to my replies #40 and # 50 and to the recent ones of BHS?

Stephen, I am aware that I hadn't addressed a number of posts earlier in this thread - not least because I have a life to live that doesn't involve my being here all the time.  However, I've read your two posts referred to above and here is my take on both.

Quote
(#40)
More fundamental contradictions in the various positions you hold.

When we discussed a while ago about God commanding genocide, ...

Yet recently you have suggested that God could have had a hand in determining the recent referendum vote.
I don't recall saying anything of the sort.  If you are referring to a post that I think you are referring to (and I certainly don't intend to search though all the referendum threads to find it), I was careful not to suggest that. 

Quote
And above you also suggest that he can change the attitudes of people in order to obtain a certain outcome.
Not sure how you get to this conclusion.  After all, I was pointing out how healing can be more than merely physical.  There is nothing to do with changing "the attitudes of people in order to obtain a certain outcome" - that's something you have added yourself.  Generally - as Jesus points out in Luke's Gospel - someone approaches a doctor because they appreciate that they are 'ill' in some way.  In other words, they want to change; a doctor empowers them to do that, be it by themselves or with help from 3rd parties such as surgeons or other medics.

Quote
For me it clearly shows that if God can change minds and attitudes then he committed/ordered genocide in the past. If he can't change minds then he can't have had a say in the referendum or in the healing that you refer to.
You're entitled to that view, but if you are basing it on the rather flimsy arguments you've listed here, perhaps you need to rethink.


Quote
(#50)
So has does this work in the case of surgeons who have given up on patients who have then recovered as you like point out?

Did they performed some procedure that they wouldn't normally have considered if prayers had not been said?

I mean did they turn up at the hospital one day and say "I wouldn't normally do this to a terminally ill patient but I have a strange desire to do it now" ?
That's a very interesting set of questions.  I would suggest that, in some cases, the surgeons/medics have done no more than their original intention, and left the patient alone - and the prayers of people have had an impact.  In other cases, and I can think of at least a couple of these, the medics have decided to try something that they had previously dismissed or have had other medics (sometimes many miles away) suggest they try, because the situation has been shared with other people - some of whom could be surgeons themselves or who have been able to talk with surgeons they know.  I can think of one operation my wife helped with in Nepal where the British surgeon was talked through the procedure by a surgeon in the States using Skype!!  Said US surgeon had been approached by someone whose family were praying for the situation.  As I have said elsewhere, one might be the answer - or at least part of the answer - to one's own prayers.  Regarding the "I wouldn't normally do this to a terminally ill patient but I have a strange desire to do it now" issue, I have been told by sureons and other doctors that they have had a 'revelation' whilst thinking about the case, perhaps as a result of reading an article in the Lancet or the British Medical Journal, and wondered whether the process described could be the answer; a procedure they'd never performed before but which was clearly enough outlined to perform having spoken to the author or whatever for clarification.


Rather than me casting about and guessing which "recent ones of BHS" you are referring to, perhaps you could give me the post numbers as you did for yours.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #227 on: July 11, 2016, 10:26:23 PM »
Hope,

Quote
Rather than me casting about and guessing which "recent ones of BHS" you are referring to, perhaps you could give me the post numbers as you did for yours.

Replies 36 - 39 inc for starters.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #228 on: July 11, 2016, 10:33:07 PM »
Hope,

Quote
- and the prayers of people have had an impact.

What makes you think that praying had any effect at all?
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ippy

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #229 on: July 11, 2016, 11:14:09 PM »
Hope,

What makes you think that praying had any effect at all?

Blue, you must know the answer Hope will be most likely to offer you on this one.

ippy

Gordon

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #230 on: July 11, 2016, 11:46:14 PM »
After all, I was pointing out how healing can be more than merely physical.

How exactly: what mechanism is 'more than merely physical'?

Quote
There is nothing to do with changing "the attitudes of people in order to obtain a certain outcome" - that's something you have added yourself.  Generally - as Jesus points out in Luke's Gospel - someone approaches a doctor because they appreciate that they are 'ill' in some way.  In other words, they want to change; a doctor empowers them to do that, be it by themselves or with help from 3rd parties such as surgeons or other medics.

I doubt that the alleged views of Jesus are relevant to medicine in the 21st century. While in some cases people may want to change, say, their health related behaviour (smoking, diet etc) people also consult medical doctors because they need specialist advice and possibly specialised treatment that is different to, say, just having a positive outlook, which although useful will be of limited value in, say, the treatment of endocrine disorders.

Quote
I would suggest that, in some cases, the surgeons/medics have done no more than their original intention, and left the patient alone - and the prayers of people have had an impact.  In other cases, and I can think of at least a couple of these, the medics have decided to try something that they had previously dismissed or have had other medics (sometimes many miles away) suggest they try, because the situation has been shared with other people - some of whom could be surgeons themselves or who have been able to talk with surgeons they know.  I can think of one operation my wife helped with in Nepal where the British surgeon was talked through the procedure by a surgeon in the States using Skype!!  Said US surgeon had been approached by someone whose family were praying for the situation.  As I have said elsewhere, one might be the answer - or at least part of the answer - to one's own prayers.  Regarding the "I wouldn't normally do this to a terminally ill patient but I have a strange desire to do it now" issue, I have been told by sureons and other doctors that they have had a 'revelation' whilst thinking about the case, perhaps as a result of reading an article in the Lancet or the British Medical Journal, and wondered whether the process described could be the answer; a procedure they'd never performed before but which was clearly enough outlined to perform having spoken to the author or whatever for clarification.

It is clear from this amateur anecdotal ramble that you really don't have a clue how medicine operates: the above, given its insightless simplicity, reads more like 'Topsy and Tim Visit the Doctor'.

While it is the case that specialist medics tend to focus on patients who have problems that fit their specialism, and that they do so is the result of preceding clinical assessment that these days often involve tests and the consideration of differential diagnoses, this does not mean that there is only one treatment option, especially where there are several clinical aspects to consider in any one patient and that patients don't always respond in the same way to the same treatment(s).

In my experience, in various clinical areas during a long NHS career, and while I have seen examples of medics choosing different options within appropriate treatment regimes, asking other specialists to give an opinion or referring to the published medical science in considering a range treatment options - and no doubt in remote areas this may involve remote consultation between suitably qualified professionals (the Flying Doctor service in Australia for example) - in routine treatment (as opposed to clinical research) I have never encountered a 'lets try this and see what happens' approach where the 'this' is unjustified by any presenting diagnostic evidence. Intervention on a whim like this may well be seen as unethical, and would be a quick way to becoming an ex-medic.

I have also sat through many mortality/case reviews, where the specifics of a death or on-going response to treatment are reviewed so that any cavalier or unjustified interventions would be picked up. Such reviews are used for both teaching and assessing the standard of care given, and where references to recent or relevant published research may well be made. I can't recall single occasion when a medic (and I worked with quite a few) ever referred to miracles or prayers as a possible explanation.

Since I suspect I have the advantage of you in terms direct practical experience I feel justified in saying that you are doing the medical profession, and related professions, a disservice if all you can offer is non-specific anecdote involving isolated examples in which you cite anonymous 'sureons [sic] and other doctors': you quite clearly don't know what you are talking about!           

« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 11:58:41 PM by Gordon »

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #231 on: July 12, 2016, 08:50:03 AM »
Stephen, I am aware that I hadn't addressed a number of posts earlier in this thread - not least because I have a life to live that doesn't involve my being here all the time.  However, I've read your two posts referred to above and here is my take on both.
I don't recall saying anything of the sort.  If you are referring to a post that I think you are referring to (and I certainly don't intend to search though all the referendum threads to find it), I was careful not to suggest that. 

Not careful enough.

Quote

As I said, conversations I had with folk in the church suggested that a large majority were for Scotland to remain in the UK (albeit the fact that we had no say in the matter).  If they prayed for that outcome, then I'd say that there was a favourable one.
Quote
Not sure how you get to this conclusion.  After all, I was pointing out how healing can be more than merely physical.  There is nothing to do with changing "the attitudes of people in order to obtain a certain outcome" - that's something you have added yourself. 

It clearly follows.

If God answers prayers he must change the natural order of the world in order to obtain that outcome. That's what an answer to prayer is, getting an outcome.

You have clearly stated that prayer can change the attitude of people.
This is clear in the last part of your reply which I have not bothered quoting.

Either it's just people doing what people do when faced with a problem i.e. consulting others and prayer had no effect, or God has somehow altered the minds and though processes of those people.

Therefore,  why not change the attitude of people who wish to commit a crime?

« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 09:07:33 AM by Stephen Taylor »

jeremyp

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #232 on: July 12, 2016, 09:20:03 AM »
I missed that bit Owlswing.  Idiots.  However I was thinking more of government money, grants etc.

Apart from eighteen lovely million of Kentucky tax dollars in tax breaks.
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torridon

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #233 on: July 12, 2016, 10:43:57 AM »
Regarding the "I wouldn't normally do this to a terminally ill patient but I have a strange desire to do it now" issue, I have been told by sureons and other doctors that they have had a 'revelation' whilst thinking about the case, perhaps as a result of reading an article in the Lancet or the British Medical Journal, and wondered whether the process described could be the answer; a procedure they'd never performed before but which was clearly enough outlined to perform having spoken to the author or whatever for clarification.

What is referred to as a 'revelation' here, might just be 'making a connection', it is something that minds do all the time without any need for supernatural intervention.  Once, we could have been forgiven for thinking that novel insights might be evidence for God; novel thoughts and ideas seem to spring from nowhere into mind, so where else could they have come from ? But then Freud came along and gave us the subconscious mind and now we understand that the vast majority of our minds lie below conscious awareness, and that is the source of all that apparent novelty. And after all, if there is a supernatural God intent on healing a sick individual he would use his powers to directly heal that individual, rather than using his powers to intervene in the neural pathways of a third party - that route would leave the patient still at risk, the surgeon, being human, might still get it wrong even if he received the idea correctly.  This is a notion of an incompetent God, but even an incompetent but well-intentioned God is not so awful as a capricious God, making ad hoc piecemeal interventions in response to some supplications whilst ignoring others.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 11:08:20 AM by torridon »

jeremyp

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #234 on: July 12, 2016, 02:50:26 PM »
What is referred to as a 'revelation' here, might just be 'making a connection', it is something that minds do all the time without any need for supernatural intervention.  Once, we could have been forgiven for thinking that novel insights might be evidence for God; novel thoughts and ideas seem to spring from nowhere into mind, so where else could they have come from ? But then Freud came along and gave us the subconscious mind and now we understand that the vast majority of our minds lie below conscious awareness, and that is the source of all that apparent novelty. And after all, if there is a supernatural God intent on healing a sick individual he would use his powers to directly heal that individual, rather than using his powers to intervene in the neural pathways of a third party - that route would leave the patient still at risk, the surgeon, being human, might still get it wrong even if he received the idea correctly.  This is a notion of an incompetent God, but even an incompetent but well-intentioned God is not so awful as a capricious God, making ad hoc piecemeal interventions in response to some supplications whilst ignoring others.

It's ironic, isn't it, that when we say a benevolent god could make the World a better even by just stopping rapists from committing rape, we are told he cannot interfere with the rapist's free will but when it comes to surgeons he seems to be quite happy manipulating them.
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #235 on: July 12, 2016, 03:07:30 PM »
It's ironic, isn't it, that when we say a benevolent god could make the World a better even by just stopping rapists from committing rape, we are told he cannot interfere with the rapist's free will but when it comes to surgeons he seems to be quite happy manipulating them.

Exactly the point!

I don't know if he can't see it or that he won't see it.

Owlswing

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #236 on: July 12, 2016, 03:42:04 PM »
Exactly the point!

I don't know if he can't see it or that he won't see it.

Odds on its the latter!
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #237 on: July 12, 2016, 05:03:33 PM »
Stephen,

Quote
Exactly the point!

I don't know if he can't see it or that he won't see it.

It really is the most awful contradictory mess this "prayer works" schtick isn't it.

We're asked to believe in a God who's omnibenevolent, yet gives cancer to babies.

We're asked to believe that this God is omnipotent, yet sits on his hands as tsunamis rush towards villages of innocent people.

And we're asked to believe this same god is omniscient, yet apparently will change his mind occasionally provided people who believe in him offer up the correct prayers. Only instead of just fixing the problem direct, we're asked to believe too that he does so in a more circumlocutory way by entrusting surgeons to do the job for him.

And the evidence for this remarkable claim that these prayers actually work? The bad reasoning of anecdotal stories that just ignore the fails and try to draw general conclusions from the occasional positive correlations oblivious to the notion that occasional positive correlations is exactly what you'd expect to see with no god present at all.

The odd thing about those who peddle this nonsense is that they wouldn't accept in other areas of their lives. If, say, Hope was diagnosed with a serious illness (heaven forbid) and his doctor said, "Good news Hope. We have this medicine that we've tested on one person and that person got better so, um, never mind that the other 99 died ten minutes after taking it, there you go - just pop this pill then" I suspect you'd get a fairly dusty answer. Yet with apparently a straight face he tells us that the doctors had given up on Mrs Jenkins, he and a few pals prayed for her and she go better and so - ta-daaaa! - prayer works then.

It's the thinking of a ten-year-old, but from an adult it's weird.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 05:09:51 PM by bluehillside »
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #238 on: July 12, 2016, 05:19:16 PM »
Stephen,

It really is the most awful contradictory mess this "prayer works" schtick isn't it.

We're asked to believe in a God who's omnibenevolent, yet gives cancer to babies.

We're asked to believe that this God is omnipotent, yet sits on his hands as tsunamis rush towards villages of innocent people.

And we're asked to believe this same god is omniscient, yet apparently will change his mind occasionally provided people who believe in him offer up the correct prayers. Only instead of just fixing the problem direct, we're asked to believe too that he does so in a more circumlocutory way by entrusting surgeons to do the job for him.

And the evidence for this remarkable claim that these prayers actually work? The bad reasoning of anecdotal stories that just ignore the fails and try to draw general conclusions from the occasional positive correlations oblivious to the notion that occasional positive correlations is exactly what you'd expect to see with no god present at all.

The odd thing about those who peddle this nonsense is that they wouldn't accept in other areas of their lives. If, say, Hope was diagnosed with a serious illness (heaven forbid) and his doctor said, "Good news Hope. We have this medicine that we've tested on one person and that person got better so, um, never mind that the other 99 died ten minutes after taking it, there you go - just pop this pill then" I suspect you'd get a fairly dusty answer. Yet with apparently a straight face he tells us that the doctors had given up on Mrs Jenkins, he and a few pals prayed for her and she go better and so - ta-daaaa! - prayer works then.

It's the thinking of a ten-year-old, but from an adult it's weird.
Any evidence that God gives cancer to babies? That can be theological reasoning or scientific.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #239 on: July 12, 2016, 05:24:15 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Any evidence that God gives cancer to babies? That can be theological reasoning or scientific.

There can't be evidence for that as there's no evidence for this supposed God in the first place. We're asked to believe though that this god is in everything, so presumably that would include cancers too.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #240 on: July 12, 2016, 06:27:37 PM »
Vlad,

There can't be evidence for that as there's no evidence for this supposed God in the first place. We're asked to believe though that this god is in everything, so presumably that would include cancers too.
Well I did ask for theology and you have kindly provided some by dint of your statement that God is ''in'' stuff.
Now this can mean lots of things can't it, from a non material something infusing something to being behind things in a bad way.

Sorry about the questions but how do you interpret the ''in-ness'' of God?

Gordon

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #241 on: July 12, 2016, 06:53:18 PM »
That can be theological reasoning or scientific.

What is 'theological reasoning'?

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #242 on: July 12, 2016, 07:01:07 PM »
Gordon,

Quote
What is 'theological reasoning'?

Guessing.
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Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #243 on: July 12, 2016, 07:12:50 PM »
Any evidence that God gives cancer to babies? That can be theological reasoning or scientific.

Well using logic it is easy.

Any initiator of the universe who is 3*Omni is responsible for everything that happens after that point.

Let's take an easier example.

-Let us say that you knew of a child who was being abused. You knew so with certainty.

-You knew with certainty what you could do to stop it.

-You knew with certainty that no harm could come to you.

-(optional point to keep on topic and to further highlight Hope's position) You could influence the thinking of the abuser.

And then you did nothing.

In my book you would be guilty of child abuse. What say you?

Of course the certainty bit does not apply to humans but it does to God.

To stop us going around in circles you could perhaps pick up from where we left off previously.

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=10963.msg610640#msg610640

You were on a flyer and didn't really seem to address the points raised.

« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 07:26:59 PM by Stephen Taylor »

Étienne d'Angleterre

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #244 on: July 12, 2016, 07:16:06 PM »
Stephen,

It really is the most awful contradictory mess this "prayer works" schtick isn't it.

We're asked to believe in a God who's omnibenevolent, yet gives cancer to babies.

We're asked to believe that this God is omnipotent, yet sits on his hands as tsunamis rush towards villages of innocent people.

And we're asked to believe this same god is omniscient, yet apparently will change his mind occasionally provided people who believe in him offer up the correct prayers. Only instead of just fixing the problem direct, we're asked to believe too that he does so in a more circumlocutory way by entrusting surgeons to do the job for him.

And the evidence for this remarkable claim that these prayers actually work? The bad reasoning of anecdotal stories that just ignore the fails and try to draw general conclusions from the occasional positive correlations oblivious to the notion that occasional positive correlations is exactly what you'd expect to see with no god present at all.

The odd thing about those who peddle this nonsense is that they wouldn't accept in other areas of their lives. If, say, Hope was diagnosed with a serious illness (heaven forbid) and his doctor said, "Good news Hope. We have this medicine that we've tested on one person and that person got better so, um, never mind that the other 99 died ten minutes after taking it, there you go - just pop this pill then" I suspect you'd get a fairly dusty answer. Yet with apparently a straight face he tells us that the doctors had given up on Mrs Jenkins, he and a few pals prayed for her and she go better and so - ta-daaaa! - prayer works then.

It's the thinking of a ten-year-old, but from an adult it's weird.

It's worse than that (hard to imagine I know) to me though. It's the fact that he can't see that his defence of God in one argument, God not interfering with peoples minds to stop bad things, is completely contradicted by his argument that God works through people in order to deliver healing. It is unbelievable.

Leonard James

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #245 on: July 12, 2016, 07:54:35 PM »
It's worse than that (hard to imagine I know) to me though. It's the fact that he can't see that his defence of God in one argument, God not interfering with peoples minds to stop bad things, is completely contradicted by his argument that God works through people in order to deliver healing. It is unbelievable.
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Hope

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #246 on: July 12, 2016, 08:14:27 PM »
How exactly: what mechanism is 'more than merely physical'?
OK, for one thing, there is mental ill-health - which of course tends (as we now know) needs different approaches and methods to deal with.

Quote
I doubt that the alleged views of Jesus are relevant to medicine in the 21st century. While in some cases people may want to change, say, their health related behaviour (smoking, diet etc) people also consult medical doctors because they need specialist advice and possibly specialised treatment that is different to, say, just having a positive outlook, which although useful will be of limited value in, say, the treatment of endocrine disorders.
Well, as a Christian I believe that humans are endowed with the ability to acheive a variety of things without which humanity can't survive.  Perhaps the most important of these is our mind.  Each of us have different abilities which other people rely upon - be that an ability to teach, to heal through medical knowledge, to build and construct, to organise and facilitate, etc.  I appreciate that you probably don't view life in such terms, but then that indicates how different our outlooks on life are.  I believe that science has a role to play in that life, but it isn't the be-all and end-all that some would like it to be. 

Quote
It is clear from this amateur anecdotal ramble that you really don't have a clue how medicine operates: the above, given its insightless simplicity, reads more like 'Topsy and Tim Visit the Doctor'.
Gordon, there are many medics who don't see life in your rather limited one.  Whilst they don't go around being rude about yours, they believe that it is lacking something. 

Quote
In my experience, in various clinical areas during a long NHS career, and while I have seen examples of medics choosing different options within appropriate treatment regimes, asking other specialists to give an opinion or referring to the published medical science in considering a range treatment options - and no doubt in remote areas this may involve remote consultation between suitably qualified professionals (the Flying Doctor service in Australia for example) - in routine treatment (as opposed to clinical research) I have never encountered a 'lets try this and see what happens' approach where the 'this' is unjustified by any presenting diagnostic evidence. Intervention on a whim like this may well be seen as unethical, and would be a quick way to becoming an ex-medic.
And this wonderful representation of my post is just that, a representation and 'wonderful'.  At no point in the post you are respoinding to - or any other - for that matter, have I suggested "unjustified by any presenting diagnostic evidence".  What I said was that doctors I have known have been presented with diagnostic evidence that they have never experienced before and, coincidentally(?), been reading about at the same time.  As with your 'flying doctor' example they have therefore asked advice and help from the authors of what thay have been reading - or perhaps other doctors they believe to have the experience needed to carry out a treatment in difficult circumstances.

Quote
Since I suspect I have the advantage of you in terms direct practical experience I feel justified in saying that you are doing the medical profession, and related professions, a disservice if all you can offer is non-specific anecdote involving isolated examples in which you cite anonymous 'sureons [sic] and other doctors': you quite clearly don't know what you are talking about!         
Whilst, as an English teacher, I have never attended a surgical procedure or associated process, I have a wife who used to have an important role in the theatre at Western Regional Hospital in Pokhara in Nepal, including the training of both ex-pat and Nepalese medics in the use of a particular surgical system (Rikers - I believe it was called).  She was involved in a number of operations which would have been thought twice about here in the UK because of their complexity, including some where the surgeons - experts in their own fields - had to call in assistance from similar experts in places outside of Nepal - via Skype, and even the telephone.

I would suggest that your very comments above point to your lack of experience outside of our own NHS.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #247 on: July 12, 2016, 09:57:41 PM »
Hope,

Quote
What I said was that doctors I have known have been presented with diagnostic evidence that they have never experienced before and, coincidentally(?), been reading about at the same time.

And how often have these doctors been presented with diagnostic evidence that they have never experienced before and not been reading about it at the same time?

You really are a sucker for the silent evidence fallacy aren't you.

Fine. If you get a letter from a Baltimore stockbroker though, can I suggest that you exercise a little more caution?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/jun/13/how-not-to-be-wrong-hidden-maths-jordan-ellenberg-review


 
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Gordon

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #248 on: July 12, 2016, 10:46:42 PM »
OK, for one thing, there is mental ill-health - which of course tends (as we now know) needs different approaches and methods to deal with.

So what? That those providing mental health services use the appropriate interventions is routine - I can't see you have a point here.

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Well, as a Christian I believe that humans are endowed with the ability to acheive a variety of things without which humanity can't survive.  Perhaps the most important of these is our mind.  Each of us have different abilities which other people rely upon - be that an ability to teach, to heal through medical knowledge, to build and construct, to organise and facilitate, etc.  I appreciate that you probably don't view life in such terms, but then that indicates how different our outlooks on life are.  I believe that science has a role to play in that life, but it isn't the be-all and end-all that some would like it to be.

All you are saying here is that people are different: again, so what! You can certainly believe what you like, Christian or otherwise,  but you don't get to choose your own facts, so if you have some facts that are beyond the realms of science then do tell us more, and if they really are beyond science tell us how you identified them in the first place.
   
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Gordon, there are many medics who don't see life in your rather limited one. Whilst they don't go around being rude about yours, they believe that it is lacking something.

Are there? How do you know what they think about my life, since from what you say it seems they know what I lack? This sounds like more of your anecdotal waffle.
 
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And this wonderful representation of my post is just that, a representation and 'wonderful'.  At no point in the post you are respoinding to - or any other - for that matter, have I suggested "unjustified by any presenting diagnostic evidence".  What I said was that doctors I have known have been presented with diagnostic evidence that they have never experienced before and, coincidentally(?), been reading about at the same time.  As with your 'flying doctor' example they have therefore asked advice and help from the authors of what thay have been reading - or perhaps other doctors they believe to have the experience needed to carry out a treatment in difficult circumstances.

More simplistic anecdote, just like your earlier posts when you stray into stuff you don't know about, and I'll just ignore the 'coincidence' woo you've thrown in. It is clear that you know little of medical services in reality, and that you seem inclined to reveal your limited understanding by anecdotally citing isolated cases that have no checkable provenance, along with anonymous medics, and where you to seem interpret variations in both treatments and how individuals respond as being an indication of some divine influence - given your lack of knowledge I'd also be concerned that your interpretation of what you've been told is flawed. Epidemiology clearly isn't your strong point either, since for these isolated cases you claim do so surprisingly well there are probably similar cases who don't, and that you don't know about.
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Whilst, as an English teacher, I have never attended a surgical procedure or associated process, I have a wife who used to have an important role in the theatre at Western Regional Hospital in Pokhara in Nepal, including the training of both ex-pat and Nepalese medics in the use of a particular surgical system (Rikers - I believe it was called).  She was involved in a number of operations which would have been thought twice about here in the UK because of their complexity, including some where the surgeons - experts in their own fields - had to call in assistance from similar experts in places outside of Nepal - via Skype, and even the telephone.

So what? I don't know what 'thought twice about' means in this context, but surgery/treatment goes on every day and specialist skills will be called upon when they are needed, and of course there are many specialist services dealing with specific and often complex issues. None of this is any way remarkable though - that medics and other professionals share knowledge and seek access those with specialist skill is just routine for crying out loud.
   
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I would suggest that your very comments above point to your lack of experience outside of our own NHS.

The issue here though is your lack of relevant experience since it is you who are making simplistic comments, and in that respect I do think I have the advantage of you by dint of my career history.

By the way medical knowledge is fairly generic, and those trained in accredited establishments in many other parts of the world are no less knowledgeable than those trained here (and course medics trained overseas can and do work in our NHS): they have access to the same knowledge, new research and clinical services in which to gain experience. That facilities elsewhere may vary, so that access to specialist skills and equipment is more problematic and where local medics have fewer options in terms of referring cases is a different matter entirely - I suspect you are confusing the two.   
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 11:02:47 PM by Gordon »

Spud

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Re: Answers to prayers?
« Reply #249 on: July 12, 2016, 11:09:59 PM »
Ah, so now you are deciding to impose conditions on your original all encompassing statement that abstinence from procreative sex an offence,
My original statement wasn't intended to imply that abstinence from procreative sex is an offence. Please note that I also mentioned the way in which men and women compliment each other, which is not dependent on their having children. The offence, which may not be deliberate but is still an offence, is in the rejection of the natural order for a sexual relationship to take, which is one man + one woman for life.