Answers to prayers?

[wigginhall]

It's odd isn't it - Sassy, Hope et al thinking that a conjecture that's set up to be unfalsifiable somehow becomes more likely to be true when it can't be falsified. What point do they think they are making - "you can't falsify it, therefore - um - it must be true, but you can't apply the same principle to any other unfalsifiable conjecture in which I don't believe" or something?

Weird.

Yes, the odd thing is that they seem to boast about it being unfalsifiable.   This is very weird, since there are any number of unfalsifiable ideas.   Even Thor producing thunder cannot be falsified really. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That is completely untrue! "God" DOESN'T exist, but it hasn't converted you to atheism.

Only when you realise that "God" doesn't exist will you become an atheist.

Any evidence that God doesn't exist. If not then God doesn't exist doesn't exist following your logic.

[floo]

Any evidence fairies, goblins, elves etc don't exist?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That is completely untrue! "God" DOESN'T exist, but it hasn't converted you to atheism.

Only when you realise that "God" doesn't exist will you become an atheist.

That's pretty profound Len.............is it from Star Wars?

[jeremyp]

WRONG My  faith is based on the KNOWLEDGE AND PERSONAL PROOF that God exists.
As you can find no way to challenge or disprove that then you are the one who ultimately living on faith alone for their beliefs.

My faith is based on the KNOWLEDGE AND PERSONAL PROOF that you are a brainless moron.
As you can find no way to challenge or disprove that then you are the one ultimately living on faith alone for their beliefs.

Found a way to disprove the existence of God, yet?  Nah! thought not... you keep reading what others say and not bothering to find a way to prove it. Christ has given us a way to prove it to us.

Found a way to disprove your moronity, yet?  Nah! thought not... you keep quoting the Bible and not bothering to find a way to prove it. Christ, you have no way to prove it to us.

[Owlswing]

Desperate times call for desperate measures....

Is that it... the Sassy card and the worst attempt to relay an untruth?

Gosh! Owlswing, you are losing it...

Unlike you Sassy who never had it to lose!

[Leonard James]

That's pretty profound Len.............is it from Star Wars?

Profound? It's just elementary reasoning. 

Though unfortunately not for brains addled by religious cant.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Len,

Though unfortunately not for brains addled by religious cant.

Well, the cap fits all right but it seems a bit harsh just to describe Vlad that way.

Oh hang on a mo...

...you said "religious cant".

Sorry. My bad.

[Sassy]

Personal 'proof' might convince you god exists, but the personal 'proof' of others leads them to a different conclusion. When you can provide non believers with convincing, verifiable proof god exists, then maybe we might begin to take you seriously. But hell is likely to freeze over first before that happens.

There is no personal proof about Gods existence for atheists.
They just don't want to believe they have no personal proof for their disbelief.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

They just don't want to believe they have no personal proof for their disbelief.

It's not "disbelief", it's non-belief.

If you could at least grasp the principle you might be able to avoid the same mistake in future.

[Brownie]

Disbelief - doubt without necessarily understanding
Unbelief - rejection of a belief
Non belief - definitely not believing.

[Leonard James]

Len,

Well, the cap fits all right but it seems a bit harsh just to describe Vlad that way.

Oh hang on a mo...

...you said "religious cant".

Sorry. My bad.

Ooooh, you arr awful! 

[torridon]

There is no personal proof about Gods existence for atheists.
They just don't want to believe they have no personal proof for their disbelief.

Concepts of evidence and proof are not personal. 2 plus 2 will equal 4 whoever you are, it does not vary from person to person.  The speed of light is what it is, it is not something that varies from person to person.

Here are some things that are personal : prejudices, tastes, opinions, preferences, biases, hopes, fears, desires, habits, memories.  What you call 'personal proof' is probably some amalgam of the aforementioned; proof and evidence are objective, not personal.

[floo]

Sassy,

It's not "disbelief", it's non-belief.

If you could at least grasp the principle you might be able to avoid the same mistake in future.

Asking Sass to grasp any principle is asking too much!

[Brownie]

You are really glad she is back though floo, that much is obvious by the glee in your posts.

[Sassy]

Sassy,

It's not "disbelief", it's non-belief.

If you could at least grasp the principle you might be able to avoid the same mistake in future.

You are the one in error.

it is disbelief because you are refusing to accept something believed as true or real namely God.

disbelief

noun
inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
"Laura shook her head in disbelief"
synonyms:   incredulity, incredulousness, lack of belief, lack of credence, lack of conviction, scepticism, doubt, doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, questioning, cynicism, suspicion, distrust, mistrust, wariness, chariness; More
lack of faith.
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"
synonyms:   atheism, unbelief, godlessness, ungodliness, impiety, irreligion, agnosticism, nihilism
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"

So perhaps when you are older you will have learned not to make the same mistakes twice.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Brownie,

Disbelief - doubt without necessarily understanding
Unbelief - rejection of a belief
Non belief - definitely not believing.

Sort of.

Disbelief - actively thinking something to be false.

Unbelief - the state of not having a/the belief that something is true.

Non-belief - the absence of a belief (eg, atheism).

Unbelief and non-belief are more or less the same thing. Sassy's mistake was to think that unbelief/non-belief are also the same thing as disbelief. For practical, everyday purposes atheists do proceed as if we are disbelievers - for exactly the same reason that Sassy proceeds the same way regarding her disbelief in, say, leprechauns - but in strict epistemological terms we cannot say that gods categorically do not exist, again for the same reason that Sassy cannot say that leprechauns categorically do not exist.

What can be said though is first that there's no evidence for gods/leprechauns, and second that those who argue for gods/leprechauns have only logically false arguments to deploy.

That's not to say that at some point either evidence or a cogent argument for either gods or leprechauns (or both) could not emerge, but it is to say that there's neither so far - hence unbelief/non-belief rather than disbelief.       

[Sassy]

Asking Sass to grasp any principle is asking too much!

Learning the principle truth so to know there was no error in what I said stops you from looking stupid too.

disbelief

inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
"Laura shook her head in disbelief"
synonyms:   incredulity, incredulousness, lack of belief, lack of credence, lack of conviction, scepticism, doubt, doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, questioning, cynicism, suspicion, distrust, mistrust, wariness, chariness; More
lack of faith.
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"
synonyms:   atheism, unbelief, godlessness, ungodliness, impiety, irreligion, agnosticism, nihilism
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"

I was correct in using disbelief as the above shows.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

You are the one in error.

it is disbelief because you are refusing to accept something believed as true or real namely God.

Oh dear. It's non-belief because I cannot categorically rule out at least the possibility "gods" - any more than I can categorically rule out the the possibility of any other unfalsifiable conjecture.

That's why for example even Richard Dawkins calls himself a "6.9" atheist, because a "7" would mean "definitely no gods" which it true for practical purposes, but cannot be true for epistemological purposes. 

disbelief

noun
inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
"Laura shook her head in disbelief"
synonyms:   incredulity, incredulousness, lack of belief, lack of credence, lack of conviction, scepticism, doubt, doubtfulness, dubiety, dubiousness, questioning, cynicism, suspicion, distrust, mistrust, wariness, chariness; More
lack of faith.
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"
synonyms:   atheism, unbelief, godlessness, ungodliness, impiety, irreligion, agnosticism, nihilism
"I'll burn in hell for disbelief"

So perhaps when you are older you will have learned not to make the same mistakes twice.

You can pick and choose the meaning to taste according to the source you reference. There are various works online that discuss this if you care to look for them. The etymology is interesting, but the basic sense is what counts here: you asserted that atheism relies on faith, as a sort of corollary to religious faith. It doesn't - it relies on reasoning, namely the reasoning that undoes the arguments for gods - and that's a different from faith.   

Part of the problem by the way is that there isn't a strict opposite for theism. "Disbelief" gets close according to some definitions, but there'a no unequivocal word for "definitely no gods" - however much you may think otherwise.   

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy,

I was correct in using disbelief as the above shows.

No, you were correct only in the sense that you found a source that agrees with you. There are others. The point though is that you were incorrect in your basic contention about atheism and faith.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sassy et al,

For anyone interested, here's a ink to an article about the epistemology of religious belief:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-epistemology/

[floo]

I classify myself as an agnostic, because it is remotely possible a god could exist, although I doubt humans are in touch with it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Floo,

I classify myself as an agnostic, because it is remotely possible a god could exist, although I doubt humans are in touch with it.

Atheists tend to be agnostic atheists - hence Richard Dawkins' "6.9" atheism. An alternative is ignosticism - "I have no idea what you mean by "God" so you offer me nothing about which to form an opinion."

[Gordon]

Moderator:

Can I suggest that perhaps recent posts are veering towards the speculatively personal, and that maybe it would be better to get back to the issues raised elsewhere in this thread.

[ippy]

He might well tell his children that he believes God exists but I can't imagine him being cross with them if they disagree.

(I too have just seen the Mod post and agree with it so I won't say any more about specific people.)

Brownie I was referring to youngsters the ones that are not old enough to have developed the ability to challenge, that age before seven years on average.

The infant scools are the most important ones for the C of E and of course the C of E doesn't know antyhing about youngsters being more gullable, on average, before the age of seven and of course none of the other religious organisations are aware of this fact either.

ippy