Who's for IN and who's for OUT:

[Bubbles]

I have just signed the petition.

Which petition?

[Spud]

Gonnagle,

Great post. Was thinking about this earlier; Scotland has as much land as England but a relatively tiny population. In contrast, England had to leave the EU, because it is full - we need to have authority over immigration law (even if for some time immigration stays high).

So please don't say we have made a terrible decision. It may be right for you to leave the UK, but I don't think it would be right to leave on that basis.

Edit: On the other hand, I guess Scotland has a lot less inhabitable land than England, so maybe its population is high in that respect.

[floo]

Which petition?

The one you posted, DUH!

[Bubbles]

The one you posted, DUH!

I posted a couple.

One was the London independance one, the other was for a re vote.

[floo]

I posted a couple.

One was the London independance one, the other was for a re vote.

Re vote, sorry I didn't see the other.

[Bubbles]

Dear Rose,

Loyalty to the UK ( although I prefer Great Britain ) where does my loyalty lie, well in 2014 I voted my Loyalty, I told my fellow Brits I wanted to remain part of Great Britain, why?

I Love this little island we all occupy, I love our history ( then again it is soaked in blood ) I loved the fact that we are mostly a Christian country ( culturally ) I loved the fact that I was part of a nation that celebrated and loved cricket, although I reserved the right to make fun of that silly game but I felt proud to be part of that.

I loved the fact that I could walk down my high st and see the Union flag flying, I could say, yes I am part of that, my father fought for that flag.

I was brought up in a very socialist household but one which respected the Monarchy, I was taught that my fellow brothers in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, London would stand shoulder to shoulder with me in common cause.

I loved the fact that this little island came up with a thing called the NHS, if you were sick, no matter cred, colour, religion, you would have free treatment.

I love the fact that I can walk the streets of Glasgow and see evidence of our history intermingled with British history, the Scots played a big part in creating what we are today, when the English, Welsh, Irish celebrate we too could also join in that celebration, we are part of that thing we call Great Britain.

But now I have watched as my fellow Brits have been pushed and bullied into making, for me, a terrible decision, Great Britain for me was a nation which had open arms, we embraced everyone who came to our shores, but something happened yesterday, no one can tell me that immigration was not a big factor in this whole mess.

Scotland voted to remain, to embrace that part which put the Great in Great Britain, so where does my loyalty lie? with my old style of thinking, Queen, Country, the Union flag or with a country ( Scotland ) that for me is still culturally Christian.

Right now as I type this, I haven't a clue, I see Scotland as outward looking and England and Wales as inward looking, should I rely on my old style thinking, face the future with my fellow Brits who have just voted to pull up the drawbridge or back Scotland who I think are looking to secure a bright future for our children and their children's children.

I think my loyalty should lie with our future generations.

There!! I got that off my chest, time for crispy bacon on very Scottish rolls.

Gonnagle.

🌹

I'm sure you will vote for what you think is best Gonnagle.

It's sounding more and more depressing by the minute 

The rest of Europe seem to want it to start ASAP and a reporter live in Berlin is saying they have said David Cameron should either get on with it , or get a new prime mister within days 

[Andy]

I have just signed the petition.

My mate is like that when I beat him at FIFA. - "Best out of three?"

[jeremyp]

A columnist in one of the Scottish papers this morning suggests that delaying the Article 50 notification to start the exit process until October, so as to allow Cameron to be replaced, is deliberate so that if events in the coming weeks show that 'Leave' really is madness it allows the incoming PM the option to call (if the support is sufficient in Westminster) a snap GE with a manifesto of setting aside the referendum result and not proceeding with 'Leave'.

Ordinarily this would sound like a conspiracy theory - but these are 'interesting times', as they say.

I think that is correct. There really isn't any reason to delay starting the exit process right now unless you want to give everybody a chance to have second thoughts.

I think, if Boris gets in, he'll try to find a way to renege on the referendum result.

[jeremyp]

Subjectively you thought the arguments were the best

Objectively the arguments are the best. Subjectively, the Leave arguments, although lies (or perhaps because they are lies) were more compelling.

You have to persuade in a democracy.

Yes you do and Remain lost. But there is no law of physics that says the majority can't make a really stupid decision, as they have done here.

Yesterday, the value knocked off stocks and shares was the equivalent of 40 years of EU payments. That knifed of puts the pathetic rantings of the Leave campaign in perspective.

[jeremyp]

I would rather have stayed but remain lost in a democratic process. I cannot believe people would try to overturn that as they do not like it or disagree with it.

What sort of democratic process do you believe in?

It was the wrong decision. Of course you try to overturn it (by democratic means).

[jeremyp]

No, not 1066. Just trading with the rest of the world free of EU regulations, tarrifs etc.

Um. Do you understand that the EU is what allowed us to trade with a lot of Europe without tariffs? Those will all be coming back now.

[jeremyp]

Which petition?

The one to ask parliament to trigger the clause in the referendum law that allows us to have a revote if the turn out is less than 70% and the majority is less than 60%.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

[jeremyp]

The one you posted, DUH!

You mean the one I posted?

[ad_orientem]

All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.

[Bubbles]

You mean the one I posted?

You asked me who was asking for a re vote
#231 Floo could have read either.
http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=12177.msg621912#msg621912

I don't approve of a re vote because I think it's undemocratic.

It's a way of undermining a democratic process the results of which others don't agree with.

If we don't like Scotland's vote for independance should we be able to demand they do it again, after a good talking too?


It's not a trend I want to see become the norm.

The vote is just that, the vote.

I won't be supporting any calls for a re vote.

It is what it is.

[floo]

All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.

Hmmmmm!!!

[Brownie]

Quite!  I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly.  Who does?

[floo]

Quite!  I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly.  Who does?

What goods do they have that we would want?

[ad_orientem]

Quite!  I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly.  Who does?

Shoot yourself in the foot.

[Bubbles]

What goods do they have that we would want?

Vodka, oil, gas,

The petroleum industry in Russia is one of the largest in the world. Russia has the largest reserves, and is the largest exporter, of natural gas. It has the second largest coal reserves, the eighth largest oil reserves, and is the largest exporter of oil in the world in absolute numbers.[citation needed] Per capita oil production in Russia, though, is not that high. As of 2007, Russia was producing 69.603 bbl/day per 1,000 people, much less than Canada (102.575 bbl/day), Saudi Arabia (371.363 bbl/day), or Norway (554.244 bbl/day), but more than two times the USA (28.083 bbl/day) or the UK (27.807 bbl/day).[1

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia

I wouldn't write them off.

We might need to trade 

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

T
Your post made me smile, look to the future, another referendum, that's nice

Gonnagle.

What's wrong with Gonners, for example only, say there are 20% of people in the U K that support and vote for "The Remove Pimples" political party here in the UK, why shouldn't they be represented by 20% of the seats available in the Commons and pro rata for other political parties (No offence intended to those with pimples).

At present if anyone lives in a majority party area, whichever party it happens to be, if you live there and your ideas oppose your area's dominant party how can you as an individual ever have your outlook represented, while this dominant party persists in that area?

I have difficulty, in spite of my reasonable sense of humour to smile at this form of the status quo whether it's in place now or in the future; what's to smile about the first past the post system compared to proportional representation?

ippy

[JP]

It was the wrong decision. Of course you try to overturn it (by democratic means).

In your opinion it was the wrong decision.

[JP]

Um. Do you understand that the EU is what allowed us to trade with a lot of Europe without tariffs? Those will all be coming back now.

Yes I do, and while they may apply trarrifs to us, we can do the same to them. I am sure the people with expertise in such things can reach an amicable agreement suitable to both sides. After all, they sell stuff to us as well.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

A vote on proportional representation, another vote on Independence, tell you what! keep me out of it, I am to thick to be allowed to vote

Gonnagle.

[Udayana]

I would rather have stayed but remain lost in a democratic process. I cannot believe people would try to overturn that as they do not like it or disagree with it.

What sort of democratic process do you believe in?

Trying to overturn a decision by arguing against it and persuading those you disagree with to change their minds is democracy, isn't it?