Who's for IN and who's for OUT:

[Brownie]

Yes it is.  There are some who were so certain we would Remain, they didn't bother to vote.  Their fault I suppose.  Still it would be interesting to see what happened if there was another vote soon.  Obviously we can't be forever having referendums and changing our minds but maybe just this once.  Can't see it happening though.

[jeremyp]

All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't.

The UK is fucked. There will be another referendum in Scotland now and they will vote to leave the UK. The UK is fucked.

[jeremyp]

Quite!  I couldn't give a fig about trading with Russia, frankly.  Who does?

I'd be more concerned about Russia's expansionism than trade with them. Putin is probably delighted about yesterday's result.

[jeremyp]

Yes I do, and while they may apply trarrifs to us, we can do the same to them.

You don't understand the way economics works. If they apply tariffs to us and we retaliate with tariffs on them, everybody loses because the trade doesn't happen.

I am sure the people with expertise in such things can reach an amicable agreement suitable to both sides. After all, they sell stuff to us as well.

The politicians don't sell stuff to us and while 40% of our trade is with the EU, 40% of the EU's trade is not with us. Politically, it would be very bad for the leaders of the EU for the UK to be seen to do well out of this, so they won't let us.

[Udayana]

All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.

ad_o,
 You sound as if you would be fine with Russian domination over Finland?

[JP]

You don't understand the way economics works. If they apply tariffs to us and we retaliate with tariffs on them, everybody loses because the trade doesn't happen.

If you want trade then you negotiate these things. I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.

The politicians don't sell stuff to us and while 40% of our trade is with the EU, 40% of the EU's trade is not with us. Politically, it would be very bad for the leaders of the EU for the UK to be seen to do well out of this, so they won't let us.

Time will tell.

[jeremyp]

Here's a ray of sunshine amongst the gloom and doom.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-baffles-bizarre-appearance-scotland

Donald Trump congratulates Scotland on the referendum result. He is also delighted because the currency crash means more Americans will want to come over and use his golf course.

[JP]

Trying to overturn a decision by arguing against it and persuading those you disagree with to change their minds is democracy, isn't it?

Of course it is. That is the process we have just been through. The decision to overturn the one where we had a referendum and joined the EEC has been made.

[jeremyp]

If you want trade then you negotiate these things.

If we want trade with the EU, the best thing would have been to stay in it.

I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.

No they won't by they will not be in charge of the negotiations, the European politicians will and they will do anything they can to stop anybody else leaving the EU. European companies will go along with the politicians because, while they currently stand to lose trade in the UK, the destruction of the EU means losing trade in 26 other countries too.

[jeremyp]

Of course it is. That is the process we have just been through. The decision to overturn the one where we had a referendum and joined the EEC has been made.

And there's no reason we can't change our mind again. That's democracy.

[JP]

If we want trade with the EU, the best thing would have been to stay in it.

I agree with you.

[Udayana]

If you want trade then you negotiate these things. I know the outers told a lot of lies or half truths but one which makes sense is that all the European companies that sell to us, be it cars or cheese will not want to lose the UK market.

Time will tell.

Taking cars as an example - whatever tariff the UK puts on German cars we will carry on buying BMWs, Audis and Mercedes. If the EU puts tariffs on UK cars, the factories making those: Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans will probably end up moving to within the EU in order not to lose the market. They would only stay in the UK if labor costs are significantly lower here, low enough to cancel out the EU tariff.

[JP]

And there's no reason we can't change our mind again. That's democracy.

Not at all. There is always someone that will be well and truly pissed with the result of something or other so fill your boots, then the other 49% can be angry and we get a continual stream of referendums, political and social instability and more disenfranchised population then..., who knows.

[JP]

If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.

Rules are not for bending, unless you wanted Greece to join the club then its okay.

[L.A.]

All I see is scare tactics from the bitter remain camp saying that the UK is fucked. It ain't. Europe will continue to trade with the UK as it can't afford not to and it can also trade freely with Russia, which the EU can't. Short term repercussions yes, but in the long term better off. Hopefully other countries will be encouraged to do the same.

Before the referendum, everyone with a brain was pretty sure that there would be a serious and immediate negative impact on the economy - but such thoughts were dismissed as 'Project Fear' and a lot of people were naive enough to accept that.

Turns out things are quite a lot worse than 'Project Fear' was suggesting and if there is s silver lining - it is very well concealed.

[Udayana]

If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.

Rules are not for bending, unless you wanted Greece to join the club then its okay.

Yes, they should and probably will eventually. Unfortunately any long periods of uncertainty will have significant economic effect, hence the remarks about getting on with it rather than wait for a new PM before invoking Article 50. So, overall it was good for the UK that Cameron delayed... , Boris could delay further ... possibly long enough for the EU critics in the remaining 27 to get their oars in?

[jakswan]

Objectively the arguments are the best. Subjectively, the Leave arguments, although lies (or perhaps because they are lies) were more compelling.

Whatever.

In my opinion the EU meant there was a democratic deficit which will now be rectified. There were lies on both sides. Leave focused on the scare stuff, actually a reformed EU I would be quite happy to remain but that argument wasn't made.

My opinion was dismissed I was labelled xenophobic and you failed to convince me to change my vote.

Yes you do and Remain lost. But there is no law of physics that says the majority can't make a really stupid decision, as they have done here.

In your opinion.

Yesterday, the value knocked off stocks and shares was the equivalent of 40 years of EU payments. That knifed of puts the pathetic rantings of the Leave campaign in perspective.

The Uk government didn't lose that money.

Look there is a way back, get onto your MP and demand they ask for more reforms. You might get another shot, I'll give you a tip though don't try convince someone by hysterical name calling.

[jeremyp]

If the EU is running scared enough to make an example of the UK to stifle rumblings from within other member states about leaving then perhaps they should have a good hard look at themselves and ask the question why it is this happening. One size might fit all, but more often than not, it doesn't fit very well.

I don't think there are many that would claim the EU is perfect but we had a choice to make it better or to run away. We ran away.

[jeremyp]

In my opinion the EU meant there was a democratic deficit which will now be rectified.

But your opinion on this was comprehensively demolished.

There were lies on both sides.

The Remain campaign were accused of lying about how bad the effect on the economy would be. Currently they look to be right on the money.

Leave focused on the scare stuff, actually a reformed EU I would be quite happy to remain but that argument wasn't made.

I agree it is unfortunate that the Remain campaign didn't emphasise that staying in the EU doesn't mean we have to accept it for what it is now.

My opinion was dismissed I was labelled xenophobic

Your opinion was dismissed because it was comprehensively demolished. You demonstrated you had no clue about economics, how the leaders of the EU are chosen, or how serious the problem of immigration is.

You also seemed to think that the lives of British people are intrinsically worth more than those of other people, which justifies the xenophobic label.

Look there is a way back, get onto your MP and demand they ask for more reforms. You might get another shot, I'll give you a tip though don't try convince someone by hysterical name calling.

Honestly, I think you are immune to rational argument on this subject.

[jakswan]

But your opinion on this was comprehensively demolished.

No I voted leave.

The Remain campaign were accused of lying about how bad the effect on the economy would be. Currently they look to be right on the money.

Too early to tell.

I agree it is unfortunate that the Remain campaign didn't emphasise that staying in the EU doesn't mean we have to accept it for what it is now.

You didn't either.

Your opinion was dismissed because it was comprehensively demolished. You demonstrated you had no clue about economics, how the leaders of the EU are chosen, or how serious the problem of immigration is.

There you go, you dismissed an opinion but seemed to have forgotten that my opinion and millions like me was the prize.

You also seemed to think that the lives of British people are intrinsically worth more than those of other people, which justifies the xenophobic label.

Nope, strawman.

Honestly, I think you are immune to rational argument on this subject.

Well best put on your big boy pants and suck it up then.

[ad_orientem]

ad_o,
 You sound as if you would be fine with Russian domination over Finland?

Who said that? I do, however, believe we should be on good terms with them (after all, they are our neighbour) and that we shouldn't be antagonising them as the EU and Nato seem determined to do. We should be trading with them, a vast potential market beneficial for both sides. 

[jeremyp]

No I voted leave.

Which was the wrong thing to do.

Saying you were right just because 52% of voters agree with you is argument ad populum.

The Bank of England has just allocated £250 billion to shore up the banks in case of financial instability caused by your vote. That's the equivalent of 30 years of EU contributions. Have you got anything to say about that and the likely loss of jobs due to companies moving to other parts of Europe. When are you going to admit that your decision has caused chaos and will likely lead to much hardship?

[Bubbles]

Which was the wrong thing to do.

Saying you were right just because 52% of voters agree with you is argument ad populum.

The Bank of England has just allocated £250 billion to shore up the banks in case of financial instability caused by your vote. That's the equivalent of 30 years of EU contributions. Have you got anything to say about that and the likely loss of jobs due to companies moving to other parts of Europe. When are you going to admit that your decision has caused chaos and will likely lead to much hardship?

But Jeremy that's what a vote is, argument ad populum.

The most votes win.

It's a way of determining the correct action to take.

Otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship

[jeremyp]

But Jeremy that's what a vote is, argument ad popular.

The most votes win.

It's a way of determining the correct action to take.

No it isn't. It's a way of determining what action will be taken, it doesn't mean the chosen action is, in any way, correct.

Otherwise we might as well live in a dictatorship

If the tide of public opinion swings decisively towards remain in the period before we trigger article 50, why not change the decision?

[Bubbles]

No it isn't. It's a way of determining what action will be taken, it doesn't mean the chosen action is, in any way, correct.
If the tide of public opinion swings decisively towards remain in the period before we trigger article 50, why not change the decision?

But it hasn't. I don't believe you.   The tide of public opinion is still as it was.

It's all hype by some remain voters throwing their teddies out of the pram because remain lost and they can't cope with the reality of democracy.

If I hear one more dishonest and disingenuous suggestion from a remain supporter to enforce a vote they basically lost, I'm going to start to want to disown them.
That and the politicians implicit in it.

It's dishonourable.

It's embarrassing and pathetic.

Give it a rest!