Are we done here?

[Bramble]

Wiggs,

I have heard people on Zen retreats exclaim: I do my being, or I love everything because I made it. 

You must have found a higher class of Zen retreat than I ever did! To the best of my recall the usual exclamations on such retreats tend to be along the lines of "God, my fucking knees hurt" or "When can we go home?" There was one I particularly remember where a mangy dog who lived in the premises patrolled the meditation room and periodically attempted coitus with someone's back. The exclamations during those sessions were silent but not generally charitable.

[wigginhall]

Wiggs,

You must have found a higher class of Zen retreat than I ever did! To the best of my recall the usual exclamations on such retreats tend to be along the lines of "God, my fucking knees hurt" or "When can we go home?" There was one I particularly remember where a mangy dog who lived in the premises patrolled the meditation room and periodically attempted coitus with someone's back. The exclamations during those sessions were silent but not generally charitable.

Very good.  I do remember  'my back hurts' as a kind of choral refrain.

I knew John Crook, who ran Western Zen Retreats at his farm in Wales.  He became a 'dharma heir' in Zen.

http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/lib/wcf////the-buddhist-legacy-of-john-crook/

[Bramble]

I never met John Crook but I know he was very highly regarded. The Western Zen retreat centre in Wales is still running, I understand. I used to be hungry for such things but that fire's gone out now. The old knees wouldn't take it these days and I'd rather be outside listening to the birds.

[wigginhall]

I never met John Crook but I know he was very highly regarded. The Western Zen retreat centre in Wales is still running, I understand. I used to be hungry for such things but that fire's gone out now. The old knees wouldn't take it these days and I'd rather be outside listening to the birds.

Yeah, me too.  Too tired.  I still do a regular afternoon of it, with other knackered geriatrics.   

John was an amazing guy, incredible energy.  He was a Reader at Bristol Uni, did treks into the Himalayas, met tons of gurus and Tibetan teachers, and of course, flew over to NY regularly for retreats.   Blimey, I'm looking forward to Versailles on telly tonight, that's my excitement.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Wiggs,

I just thought I'd add, that is why the Christian symbols make sense to me, but not as history.

I find that sentence intriguing - I'd be interested to hear you unpack it a little too if you wanted to. You and Bramble are clearly more immersed in this stuff than I am, but I'm relaxed at the notions of self and non-self, of our conscious beings just being occasional assemblages from an underlying network of information, a bit like bulges in an over-filled inner tube. I don't even care much if some want to label "the Universe" as "God" if they find it helpful, but the overreach for me is the jump to a sentient causal agency that decided one day to create a universe, to knock up our species (or at least one of us  ), to meddle in human affairs when the mood suits etc. It all seems terribly mediaeval to me - a simple and simplistic explanation of cause and effect when reality is so much more nuanced that "God did it".

Incidentally, did you hear Marcus du Sautoy on "A Life Scientific" the other morning? I was only half listening and need to hear it again, but he mentioned I think a mathematical formula that suggests the point at which a neural network becomes self-aware, or conscious. I'll have another listen to try to grasp the basics a bit better, but it was an interesting thought.

[Étienne d'Angleterre]

Re: Post one.

Hope: Hopeless (and I really do mean hopeless logic + lies).

Sassy: Lie: as long as it defends a believer.

Vlad: Watch out for all the straw. Basically you either agree with me or you are lying to yourself (AKA God Dodger).

I am certainly done around here (For the time being).

[Shaker]

I hope you don't mean that ST!

[bluehillside Retd.]

Stephen,

I am certainly done around here (For the time being).

Aw, don't say that. Look, I've even written a tag line for you: Stephen Taylor - fighting ignorance since 1989 (it's taking longer than he thought).

See, how can you possibly be done now?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Re: Post one.

Hope: Hopeless (and I really do mean hopeless logic + lies).

Sassy: Lie: as long as it defends a believer.

Vlad: Watch out for all the straw. Basically you either agree with me or you are lying to yourself (AKA God Dodger).

I am certainly done around here (For the time being).

Show a bit of resilience man and stick with it.

[Owlswing]

Show a bit of resilience man and stick with it.

You are one of the reasons listed for him leaving. You are also one of the main reasons why new people do not join.
The others are those listed in his post!

[Brownie]

Have people actually said they are leaving the forum because of those three posters (apart from Stephen of course)?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are one of the reasons listed for him leaving. You are also one of the main reasons why new people do not join.
The others are those listed in his post!

Why did Johnny Canoe go?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You are one of the reasons listed for him leaving. You are also one of the main reasons why new people do not join.
The others are those listed in his post!

I detected that Stephen Taylor was here for a bit of trying to persuade people AKA hopefully bag a couple of conversions.

You of course have stated you are not so given the tone and content of your posts one wonders if you are here just to criticise in a particular way.

[Owlswing]

Have people actually said they are leaving the forum because of those three posters (apart from Stephen of course)?

Most people who leave do not say why, they just quietly disappear.

Vlad is a troll who has added absolutely zilch of any real value to any thread on which he has posted.

The others are total thread killers - particularly Sassy who posts reams of  "cut and paste" from the Bible which reduces any thread to as never-ending stream of posts trying to understand just how the quotes have any relevance to the subject of the thread.

Hope knows everything and eveyone and yet manages to post absolute nonsensical fallacious arguments on just about every subject.

This gets boring and people who read it either don't join or leave.

[Owlswing]

Why did Johnny Canoe go?

He left because he took very personally a comment in a post that was, in all probability, not actually addressed to him.

You are a troll and the sooner that you realise that not everyone finds you in the least amusing or your comments interesting the better.

[Brownie]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would leave the forum because of a couple of posters, unless the posters tried to take over and dominate the forum, something I have seen on other forums but not here thankfully.

[Leonard James]

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would leave the forum because of a couple of posters, unless the posters tried to take over and dominate the forum, something I have seen on other forums but not here thankfully.

Hi Brownie,

And I find it difficult to believe that people are still taken in by religious bullshit. Unfortunately, that doesn't stop it being true.

[Bubbles]

Re: Post one.

Hope: Hopeless (and I really do mean hopeless logic + lies).

Sassy: Lie: as long as it defends a believer.

Vlad: Watch out for all the straw. Basically you either agree with me or you are lying to yourself (AKA God Dodger).

I am certainly done around here (For the time being).

If those posters weren't here there would nothing much to discuss, same goes for Johnny Canoe who is no longer here.

Every time someone leaves because of one reason or another the less this message board has to discuss.

Unless you want a messageboard made up of like minded non challenging people who agree all the time.

Those posters keep this board alive.

You need a few outrageous statements for people to react to.

[Bubbles]

There are some people who think there to be a "God", and some of them think too that they've been contacted by this deity. Some of these people think that their convictions about this are not only personal opinions, but also are reliable guides to objective truths for the rest of us if only we could see it.

Moreover, on the basis of these opinions some of these people think their beliefs should be afforded special respect, and that their institutions should enjoy various privileges in the public domain.

In the course of countless exchanges here many theists have been asked for a method to distinguish their personal beliefs from just guessing about stuff so that the rights and privileges they arrogate to themselves can be evaluated, yet - so far as I recall - none has either offered a method or has offered a method that doesn't collapse very quickly when it's examined with reasoned argument.

Is that it then? Are we done here? Fun as it may be discussing personal opinions and fascinating as some of the byways can be, the core premise of "my god is your god too" seems to be a busted flush – or at least it is insofar as no-one here is able cogently to argue for it.

What then is there left to talk about instead?

Because things come up on the news there is always something to talk about.

" my God is your God too" is a natural statement of someone who believes their God to be part of what ultimately is.

Some can see that their interpretation may not be the correct one ( or that it is impolite to force your reality on others) , but even an Athiest thinks his reality is true for everyone else too.

He can't objectively prove it either.

Because no one knows.

[Nearly Sane]

Because things come up on the news there is always something to talk about.

" my God is your God too" is a natural statement of someone who believes their God to be part of what ultimately is.

Some can see that their interpretation may not be the correct one ( or that it is impolite to force your reality on others) , but even an Athiest thinks his reality is true for everyone else too.

He can't objectively prove it either.

Because no one knows.

No, I don't as an atheist think my reality is true for everyone, everyone, don't even think it's true for me. Note there are plenty of theists who could also say that. 

[Brownie]

Hi Brownie,

And I find it difficult to believe that people are still taken in by religious bullshit. Unfortunately, that doesn't stop it being true.

Oooh Len!  So you believe religious bs is true.  Put out the flags, we have a religious conversion here, serendipitous or what? 

There are far more non-religious than religious on this board and the 'nons-Rs' post more frequently than the Rs.  On an R&E forum, one expects a small proportion of posters to adhere to a religion.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rose,

Some can see that their interpretation may not be the correct one ( or that it is impolite to force your reality on others) , but even an Athiest thinks his reality is true for everyone else too.

Well, this atheist at least thinks that there are no arguments for a 'true for you too" god that aren't logically fallacious, and that that is the case for everyone - that is, there aren't logically sound arguments for a "true for you too" god that are available to theists, but that they've kept to themselves. 

I don't though claim any special privileges for my opinion, let alone that I'd be offended if people disagreed, that I'd like special schools to teach it, that atheists should by right have seats in the legislature etc. I'm also aware that "no logically sound arguments" should have a "so far" at then end of it. If ever one was produced, then I'd have to change my position. I'm not sure that many theists would take an equivalent position though. 

But yes, I do think that "there are no logically sound arguments for it, at least so far" is a truth for everyone.

[Udayana]

I agree that there are no logically sound arguments for a "true for you god" I don't think that means that anything is "done and dusted". It makes no difference.

Science and logic is great for analysing and understanding the universe and operating in it. However it doesn't resolve (though of-course will ultimately explain) the need for meaning. The experience of life itself. The subjective, emotional and instinctual universe. How it feels to be alive.

People can share their subjective worlds through art, music and so on, culture including religion. They have empathy so can imagine each others views and positions. They create mythologies that give meaning to living. Some of these mythologies gain strength from including the "whole of humanity", the "whole universe" etc, absolutism.

I think the argument will go on forever ... until human life (or maybe even life itself) is extinct.

[Maeght]

... but even an Athiest thinks his reality is true for everyone else too.

Not true.

[Rhiannon]

Not true.

Agreed.

This applies to pagans and I would have thought most Buddhists.