Author Topic: A girl in the River  (Read 4648 times)

john

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A girl in the River
« on: June 07, 2016, 10:27:07 PM »
Did anyone watch this documentary on Sky Atlantic at 9 pm on Tuesday 7th June.... Available as a download on catch up TV.

It concerns a girl in Pakistan who married the man she loved against her fathers wishes. Her father shot her (dead he thought) and put her body in the river so the it would not be found, to preserve his honour. However, badly wounded, she lived.

What happened next is remarkable and shows how truly barbaric Sharia law is.
"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

Owlswing

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2016, 05:38:58 AM »
Did anyone watch this documentary on Sky Atlantic at 9 pm on Tuesday 7th June.... Available as a download on catch up TV.

It concerns a girl in Pakistan who married the man she loved against her fathers wishes. Her father shot her (dead he thought) and put her body in the river so the it would not be found, to preserve his honour. However, badly wounded, she lived.

What happened next is remarkable and shows how truly barbaric Sharia law is.

You might have done better to post this on anothe topic as I don't think we have any Muslim's on the forum anymore.

Religion and Ethics possibly?
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john

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2016, 09:38:53 AM »
I thought this was the correct place to discuss Muslim issues with anybody interested regardless of whether they are in fact Muslim or not. Or whether or not there are actually any Muslims here.

I come to this board to find out about religious issues of all kinds rather than to just say my way is better than your way, without attempting to understand why/why not.

This documentary clearly shows the harm religious thinking does. And is all the more powerful for not having an editorial or critical voice, it just presents the facts.

A father thinks it is OK to kill his daughter for falling in love with the wrong man. He is released from jail after his daughter is forced to say she forgives him, which makes it OK apparently under Sharia law. And far from being contrite about it he claims his standing in the community is enhanced because he "did the right thing" and because he did it (and got away with it) no female in his family will ever disobey her father again.

This sort of attitude clearly also permeates the thinking of some of the UK's immigrants and should be of concern to us also, whether we are Muslim or not.

"Try again. Fail again. Fail Better". Samuel Beckett

Owlswing

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2016, 09:42:58 AM »
I thought this was the correct place to discuss Muslim issues with anybody interested regardless of whether they are in fact Muslim or not. Or whether or not there are actually any Muslims here.

I come to this board to find out about religious issues of all kinds rather than to just say my way is better than your way, without attempting to understand why/why not.

This documentary clearly shows the harm religious thinking does. And is all the more powerful for not having an editorial or critical voice, it just presents the facts.

A father thinks it is OK to kill his daughter for falling in love with the wrong man. He is released from jail after his daughter is forced to say she forgives him, which makes it OK apparently under Sharia law. And far from being contrite about it he claims his standing in the community is enhanced because he "did the right thing" and because he did it (and got away with it) no female in his family will ever disobey her father again.

This sort of attitude clearly also permeates the thinking of some of the UK's immigrants and should be of concern to us also, whether we are Muslim or not.

Maybe then the Religion and Ethics topic would get you a fuller discussion of the matter.

We do not actually have a topic for the discussion of Right Royal Religious Bastardry like that in your programme.
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An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2016, 07:32:31 PM »
The story is a terrible one John, such things have always gone on, not only in the Islamic world.  Not that many years ago in this country, children were the property of their parents until they were of age and, even then, girls and women did not have control over their own money or property.  Their husbands did, if they married.  They often had better lives as single women if they had some money left to them.  As for violence in the home, the law considered that to be 'domestic' and rarely intervened (obviously murder was a different matter).

Girls could be shut away in residential care if they were considered to have a tendency to be morally 'easy' and their voices were often not heard again.  There were cases of men having their wives 'circumcised' (genital mutilation), if the woman showed too much interest in sex.  It doesn't bear thinking about.

None of the above had anything to do with religion but scriptures were often distorted to justify such actions.

We hear about 'honour killings' occasionally and the concept is alien to us.  You said:
This sort of attitude clearly also permeates the thinking of some of the UK's immigrants and should be of concern to us also, whether we are Muslim or not.

I venture that it is of concern to the majority of Muslims in this country, also in other countries.  None of it has anything to do with Islam but religious texts can be distorted to justify it, which is what extremists do.

Mohammed came from a culture where women had absolutely no rights.  He established a religion that emancipated them, by the standards of the day.  They were, and are, allowed to keep their money after marriage; if they earn money it is for them to decide how it is spent.  Men were permitted to take up to four wives but only after consultation with existing wives, and with their consent, whereas previously a man could have dozens if he could afford it.  None of this seems like much to us but it was quite revolutionary in its day.

We have a lovely Muslim poster called Gabrielle but we haven't seen her for a couple of weeks.  It would be nice if she came back and answered you.  However it's possible she is fed up of being accused of so much just because she is a Muslim;  even though the criticism is not addressed to her personally, she constantly has to defend and explain her faith and that must wear a bit thin after a while.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 07:35:50 PM by Brownie »
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2016, 07:37:25 PM »
Sorry but I'm afraid Gabrielle, however honest she is, cannot explain her 'chosen' faith as she knows less about it than the one she came from ie Hinduism.

Nick

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 09:09:11 PM »
You obviously know more, trippy, or you wouldn't have said that.
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »
I'm not the subject of this discussion, thank you ?!!?? HA HA

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2016, 10:46:53 PM »
That's true, the subject is a poor girl whose father tried to murder her.
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 07:34:07 AM »
Doesn't this kind of action prove that NO - I repeat NO !!! religion is EVER completely clear ??!!!
Probably cos life isn't entirely clear either. ::)
And when a certain religion, cough ISLAM cough cough, claims it's for ALL people for ALL time, we know it's utter BOLLOX !!!!!!
Aye Thank Yew !!

Udayana

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2016, 09:35:02 AM »
...
A father thinks it is OK to kill his daughter for falling in love with the wrong man. He is released from jail after his daughter is forced to say she forgives him, which makes it OK apparently under Sharia law. And far from being contrite about it he claims his standing in the community is enhanced because he "did the right thing" and because he did it (and got away with it) no female in his family will ever disobey her father again.

This sort of attitude clearly also permeates the thinking of some of the UK's immigrants and should be of concern to us also, whether we are Muslim or not.

I agree, these attitudes do persist, often quite strongly, in various communities, including some UK immigrant  groups. I'm sure they already are of concern, but the point is what should be done about them other than discussion and education or persuasion?

Unfortunately people with these attitudes are not inclined to discuss them on an open message board. Even if they tried, we would probably ban them after a post or two.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2016, 02:46:03 PM »
If some posters want my opinion on this because I am the only Muslim poster on here, ok.

I think the documentary quite rightly won an Oscar for highlighting the crime of "honour killings" in certain communities. IMO people who murder others (their own family members) in this way often seem to have very little empathy for others or self-control and seem very sensitive to how they are viewed by their community and they probably have a stunted ability to emotionally connect with their children. A few people in their community make comments about how the murderers are lesser men or lesser parents because they have no control over their adult children and they feel unable to cope with the loss of status - the loss of status is more unbearable to them than killing their own children. This seems to occur in nomadic cultures or where law is dispensed swiftly and locally and not slowly and nationally. This is a cultural issue in highly controlled, rigid, often macho communities, but it does not follow that everyone who is part of such a society or community thinks the same way or supports the right to commit this particular type of murder.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/cj-jp/fv-vf/hk-ch/p3.html

There are some Muslims who carry out "honour killing" crimes. There are some non-Muslims who carry out "honour killings" crimes. There are also some Muslims and non-Muslims who fight to eradicate the crime - and who see the fight against honour killings as being part of their religious and/or human duty. So logically I think it becomes pointless to focus on Islam or all Muslims as being the defining factor in the crime of honour killings - Islam is defined differently from one Muslim to the next. Some Muslims want to end honour killings but are opposed to legislation being introduced in violent disputes between husband and wife or parents and children as they consider it against their cultural norms to involve the law in family matters. Other Muslims disagree with this conservative approach and think the police and courts should get involved. Both sides will cite Islam and humanity in support of their positions.

Apart from strictly enforcing legislation (maybe unlikely in Pakistan given the corruption) and closing loopholes to prevent murderers or attempted murderers escaping justice by being forgiven by the victim or their family (because the crime is considered a personal family matter), it may be useful to use Islamic language to try to eradicate "honour killings"in countries or communities where the target audience are mainly Muslim - as the arguments will be more persuasive to the ordinary person if framed in Islamic language, parables and examples. That applies to any Muslim communities in the UK who support "honour killing" as a defence for murder.

There is a concept in Islam where the victim of a crime can forgive their assailant rather than demanding retribution, but clearly some Muslims think personal forgiveness should not prevent state prosecution holding the criminal accountable for their crime as a matter of public interest and law and order. Other Muslims disagree.

There are many Pakistanis who reject the idea that families should be able to escape unpunished after killing family members over some abstract concept such as honour, and who realise that education and legislation are both needed to tackle the issue. It is not just poor or uneducated people in Pakistan who have committed the crime - there are examples of highly educated Pakistanis (and not just men) carrying out the crime - e.g. a 28 year old mother of 2 young children was gunned down in her lawyers' office by an assassin hired by her mother, for trying to get a divorce from her abusive husband.

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jul/09/news/mn-50070

The Pakistan Prime Minister is supporting activists trying to change the law - but the wheels of change turn slowly.

http://www.pmo.gov.pk/press_release_detailes.php?pr_id=1342

Quote
Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif met renowned social activist and filmmaker Ms. Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy at the Prime Minister’s House today.
 
The Prime Minister said that customs and practices like honour killings have nothing to do with the divine principles and theories of Islam. The revolution brought by Islam in the world manifested through the life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the most successful movement for change of social reforms which has altered the course of history for all times to come. It was Islam which first recognized the rights of women.
Prime Minister Muhammad Nawaz Sharif said that honour killings is a most critical issue  and his government is determined to adopt all possible ways and means for removing this stain from our society.  Women are the most essential part of our society and I believe in their empowerment, protection and emancipation for achieving the shared goal of a prosperous and vibrant Pakistan, added the Prime Minister.
 
The Prime Minister further said that all concerned have already been directed for plugging the loopholes in the existing laws through stake-holders consolations, in order to eliminate honour killings from Pakistan. ‘Social evils can be overcome through an effective partnership between the government and the civil society’, urged the Prime Minister.
 
The Prime Minister announced that the premiere of Ms. Chinoy’s documentary nominated for the 88th Academy Awards “A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness” will be held at the Prime Minister’s Office on 22nd February, 2016. Acknowledging the efforts of Ms. Chinoy, the Prime Minister wished Ms Chinoy success in the Academy Award for her film.
 
Ms. Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy said that she is proud that Pakistan has a Prime Minister who has taken a leading role to address the issue of honour killings in the country. She also thanked the Prime Minister for supporting her endeavours to end honour killings in the country and revive the progressive image of Pakistan.
 
The filmmaker appreciated the role of Ms Maryum Nawaz in helping the government in achieving its goals set in the sector of education.
 
The meeting was also attended by Ms Maryum Nawaz Sharif and SAPM Tariq Fatemi.
 

A Bill to protect women has been passed by Punjab state assembly. The bill faces opposition from religious and no-religious conservatives as being against cultural norms and undermining family life.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1061107/no-safe-passage-for-pro-women-bills-in-g-b/

Quote
Interestingly, opposition did not come from a religious party alone; it came from those representing parties such as PML-N [Pakistan Muslim League - the ruling party] too. The speaker and deputy speaker were among those opposed to the bill. “This is a mindset that isn’t generally confined to politicians of religious parties,” says Khan, adding the government cannot afford to keep it pending for too long.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1056246/religious-parties-flay-women-protection-bill-back-page/

I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2016, 03:02:30 PM »
Sorry but I'm afraid Gabrielle, however honest she is, cannot explain her 'chosen' faith as she knows less about it than the one she came from ie Hinduism.

Nick
Nick obviously enjoys being corrected by me on here - he is here to learn, as shown by the number of times I have had to correct on him on here about his vague, simplistic generalisations about Islam.

Generalisations are usually very unconvincing arguments, but appreciating complexity is too challenging for Nick.

Nick is not a Muslim. Culturally he is a Hindu.

I was a Hindu for maybe 12 years when I was a kid, then I became an atheist for about 10 or 11 years and have been a Muslim for 22 years - so it's not surprising that I know a lot more about Islam than Nick does. For some reason Nick seems to have a bee in his bonnet about me becoming a Muslim. Ah well...<shrugs>
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2016, 09:46:57 AM »
I read both your posts Gabriella, very insightful.  Off the point but I can't see why it matters to Trippy what religion you espouse, it hardly affects him and isn't his business.
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2016, 09:48:20 AM »
No Very true but when people spout rubbish I know isn't true - especially 'against' another faith, I feel it necessary to 'educate' that person.

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2016, 01:05:50 PM »
Well we are going off topic somewhat but I daresay a lot of people 'spout nonsense' from the perspective of others and it is quite true that they often have a distorted view of other people's faiths, based on bits they have read or people who have passed through their lives.  However I've not seen Gabriella spout nonsense; I don't know what your faith is trippy, if any, but I haven't seen her attack Christianity.  She speaks about her own religion and about general things.
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2016, 05:07:05 PM »
I'm not a Christian by any means but I do lean towards Hinduism quite a lot.
Gabriella was born into a Hindu family, she says. She chose Islam later on which , of course, is HER choice. OK for now.

I personally don't approve of Islam's attitude to ALL non-Muslims who are called by the derogatory name of the Kuffar meaning ungrateful !!! Ungrateful?!?! For What?

I try not to read what some say about Islam & talk with Muslims & read books for non-Muslims BY Muslims as they can be better understood generally.

As far as I'm concerned Muhammed had an obvious agenda & IS are carrying this on now.
His delusions were not accepted by 'his' people & he was considered a troublemaker in Mecca which BTW was NEVER anything to do with Judaism OR Christianity. Even in the screwed up versions of their books we have now have NO mention whatsoever of this place !! The Kaaba was/IS a place of pagan Arab worship & the name Al-Lah meant simply The God meaning this character was the highest god there at that time. Muhammed's wranglings in trying to get people there to follow him were quite obviously seen through & he was thrown out.
One can see how his 'promises' of vestal virgins & a place in Heaven which had all the things they were lacking ON earth would appeal to the simpler there.

I'm no full expert on Islam but I'm quite willing to accept anything I've misrepresented if the opposite is shown to me. No religion has a monopoly on God & I'm sure we ALL know of good or bad in ALL religions. Islam is presented as some 'final message' which obviously is rubbish if one considers how mankind has altered over the millenia & things can be done away with as we go along.
It's this blind faith some have despite being shown the opposite that gets me. ;)

It would be much better if we could talk face-to-face rather than relying on this typing business as I'm pretty sure, if we DID meet, we'd get on quite well & agree to differ ?!!?!?! ;)

Nick

Brownie

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2016, 10:09:00 PM »
We might well get on Trippy but we'll never know (though you might have meant yourself and Gabriella, not u&me  :D).
Let's leave it there Trippy, we have gone far off the point and I don't feel comfortable talking about Gabriella in her absence.
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trippymonkey

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2016, 10:35:45 PM »
She's OK really, we've got on fine at other times. Talking directly with people is so much better than this way, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Do please read up on the origins of Islam from any 'legit' site anyway & see what you think. Thing is -  people can say 'oh well, it was what was happening all over then' BUT the real problem lies when Islam & Muslims claim Islam is for ALL for ALL time. Now THAT I've got issue with.

BTW I'm sure we'd ALL get on if we ever met !?!!?!?

Nick

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Re: A girl in the River
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2016, 07:43:13 AM »
If you look at lot of religions, many of them  have a negative veiw of " outsiders"

Not everyone in that religion shares it, some prefer to deny it.

But it's there.

In Christianity and Judaism, too.

It's a negative part of religion which I don't like at all.

Islam isn't alone in this.