Gay club attacked in Florida

[Shaker]

The only surprise is how low these numbers are given the availability of these deadly weapons. You wonder just what kind of atrocity it will take to make people realise that something needs to be done.

There will be no such event.

The event that made rational, reasonable, thinking people aware that the American attitude to guns is fucked up beyond all measure happened a very long time ago. It wasn't any one specific mass shooting; it was any of them. Pick one, any one.

But the NRA, god-given-rights, hunting mob who have sat by and watched all these shootings and seen the bodies - many of them children's bodies - pile up and still think that there's no need for strict gun control are not rational, reasonable, thinking people; so no, no type of atrocity will make them realise anything at all.

[Owlswing]

There will be no such event.

The event that made rational, reasonable, thinking people aware that the American attitude to guns is fucked up beyond all measure happened a very long time ago. It wasn't any one specific mass shooting; it was any of them. Pick one, any one.

But the NRA, god-given-rights, hunting mob who have sat by and watched all these shootings and seen the bodies - many of them children's bodies - pile up and still think that there's no need for strict gun control are not rational, reasonable, thinking people; so no, no type of atrocity will make them realise anything at all.

Americans are very hot on their rights - it is a shame that, mostly, they don't give a tuppenny damn for the rights of anyone else of any other nationality anywhere in the world.

[Nearly Sane]

Americans are very hot on their rights - it is a shame that, mostly, they don't give a tuppenny damn for the rights of anyone else of any other nationality anywhere in the world.

Ah stereotyping. Hurrah

[floo]

Apparently you can buy guns in Walmart when you are buying your groceries!

[Brownie]

I'm so glad we have tighter legislation for gun ownership here but, at the same time, we cannot be complacent.  We have plenty of gun crime here, the guns are owned illegally but still it happens.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gun-crime-capital-uk-been-7375468

[floo]

I'm so glad we have tighter legislation for gun ownership here but, at the same time, we cannot be complacent.  We have plenty of gun crime here, the guns are owned illegally but still it happens.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gun-crime-capital-uk-been-7375468

No we certainly can't be complacent at all. However, gun crime would be much, much worse if people were permitted to arm themselves with hand guns, assault rifles etc for protection as in the US..

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

But the NRA, god-given-rights, hunting mob who have sat by and watched all these shootings and seen the bodies - many of them children's bodies - pile up and still think that there's no need for strict gun control are not rational, reasonable, thinking people; so no, no type of atrocity will make them realise anything at all.

Yep!! that's them, the NRA, very powerful and rich people, gun control would be bad for business, I joined their web site last time we had one of these tragedies, I think it was the white guy walking into a school, not terrorist related, anyway I was banned for simply asking what they were going to do about it, if I remember correctly there was only one discussion going on about the shooting, the rest was about the latest most powerful gun on the market, sad, very sad.

Gonnagle.

[Owlswing]

Ah stereotyping. Hurrah

You would disagree with my assessment?

Anyone would think that I gave a tuppenny damn. All my personal experiences with Americans confirm my personal view and will do so until I find some Americans who think and act otherwise and that includes most of their politicians and political appointees from local marriage registry officials upwards!

[Nearly Sane]

You would disagree with my assessment?

Anyone would think that I gave a tuppenny damn. All my personal experiences with Americans confirm my personal view and will do so until I find some Americans who think and act otherwise and that includes most of their politicians and political appointees from local marriage registry officials upwards!

Spoken like a true bigot.

[Aruntraveller]

Owlswing

I don't really know why you wish to generalise in such a fashion. I'm sure the people of Marseilles think that the English are all a bunch of thugs.

You simply can't do that with any nationality. And dare I say it especially with a country as diverse as the USA.

I am not saying that the states are not without their faults - gun laws being a prime example - but I have met and I am friends with some thoughtful, caring intelligent Americans; who I know are just as appalled at this act as I and you are. Similarly they see their interventions in the Middle East as a disaster.

So you really have to stop getting that tarred brush out quite so often.

[Rhiannon]

Just picked up this story - Owen Jones walking out of Sky News.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

[jakswan]

Spoken like a true bigot.

Pedantry on my part but it would be prejudice not bigotry?

Definition:-
obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.

[Bubbles]

Spoken like a true bigot.

While we are on the subject of generalisations let's not forget Shakers one on " hunters"  it isn't the " hunters who are misusing their guns shooting people. 

But the NRA, god-given-rights, hunting mob who have sat by and watched all these shootings and seen the bodies - many of them children's bodies - pile up and still think that there's no need for strict gun control are not rational, reasonable, thinking people; so no, no type of atrocity will make them realise anything at all.

It is possible to cut down on who has access to a certain type of a gun, while accommodating hunters.

[Nearly Sane]

Pedantry on my part but it would be prejudice not bigotry?

Definition:-
obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.

Using it as effectively synonym - see below

1.intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself:
"the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"

synonyms: prejudice · bias · partiality · partisanship · sectarianism ·

[jakswan]

Just picked up this story - Owen Jones walking out of Sky News.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

I watched that no idea why Owen Jones got quite so worked up. I think JHB agreed it was an attack on LGBT.

[Nearly Sane]

While we are on the subject of generalisations let's not forget Shakers one on " hunters"  it isn't the " hunters who are misusing their guns shooting people.

I am unaware of what % of the mass shootings carried out are members of the NRA - are you? And you should note that Shaker didn't say they had carried out the shootings, so unsure what your point is?

[jakswan]

Using it as effectively synonym - see below

1.intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself:
"the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry"

synonyms: prejudice · bias · partiality · partisanship · sectarianism ·

Gah poor pedantry on my part then.

JHB on the Sky News thing.
http://talkradio.co.uk/highlights/julia-hartley-brewer-speaks-out-about-twitter-abuse-after-owen-jones-debate-1606131595

[Aruntraveller]

I watched that no idea why Owen Jones got quite so worked up. I think JHB agreed it was an attack on LGBT.

I saw it live - it wasn't specifically JHB it was more the presenter Mark ? who was quite remarkably insensitive - by stressing that they were human beings - and not wanting to really accept the specific point that they were targeted because they were gay. Had it been Jews in a synagogue - it would have been described as anti-Semitic - there was an unwillingness to accept it was an homophobic hate crime - as well as terrorism. Also the description of the man as a lunatic was not helpful in the context of the discussion as again it implied he could have chosen any group of people - whereas it had already been disclosed by his father that he had got worked up by seeing two men kissing.

[Owlswing]

Owlswing

I don't really know why you wish to generalise in such a fashion. I'm sure the people of Marseilles think that the English are all a bunch of thugs.

You simply can't do that with any nationality. And dare I say it especially with a country as diverse as the USA.

I am not saying that the states are not without their faults - gun laws being a prime example - but I have met and I am friends with some thoughtful, caring intelligent Americans; who I know are just as appalled at this act as I and you are. Similarly they see their interventions in the Middle East as a disaster.

So you really have to stop getting that tarred brush out quite so often.

I regret to say that my meetings with persons of American nationality, in particualar servicemen, have been far from cordial.

Fellow soldiers dismissed and cowards and useless idioits who, as soon as they got into a fight, call for the Americans to get them out of trouble - usually, funny, not, when 20 or so Bristish soldiers have been doing perfectly well only to see the Yanks come barging in by the hundred and claim the they "were rescuing the Brisish" and having the Yank papers yelling their praises and ignoring the Brits - both the wounded and the dead.

Soldiers lost in friendly fire in Iraq, and Afghanistan (where, during the first months the British Army lost more killed and wounded to the Americans (friendly fire) than the Iraqis)- those Americans who shot them sent home amd given medals and promotions and the British authorities refused permisionb to question the Yanks involved at the inquests on the ground that America does not, and will not, extradite its citizens to face possible criminal charges overseas.

To see a single WWII Victoria cross holder dismissed by a group of about fifteen US marines with enough scrap metal on their chests to sink the Titanic, as a 'lightweight" for having only six ribbons on his chest and being asked where he was wounded to be awarded the putrple one, probably, according to the sergeant for a hangnail, before they walked off laughing. Britih soldiers were restrained from action as being 'bad publicity'.

NS and Trent, until I meet some decent Yanks, I have only met two I can remember and they were as scared of their countrymen as anyone for both these ladies were pagan and witch, I will keep hold of my tar-brush thanks! At least I can go public with my religion without getting death threats!

Anyway, rather than upset the delicate sensibilities of the Yanks and their friends on this side of the Oggin, I'll shut up.

[Aruntraveller]

It is ironic (this is not my original thought but something I picked up on FB) that the very people who want us to hate Muslims are the same ones who want the free sale of guns in the USA to the likes of Mateen.

I'm trying hard not to use this phrase but really you couldn't fucking make it up.

[Bubbles]

Just picked up this story - Owen Jones walking out of Sky News.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/sky-news-homophobia-orlando-sexuality

I think the point being made was that the Paris attack was worse because it involved 100 people rather than 50, whereas he wanted the fact it had happened to gay people to be more prominent.

The problem is that can make it sound as if the reason it was worse is because the victims were gay.

Whereas if it's your relative that gets killed it's pretty much as bad as it gets and their sexuality is irrelevant.

It sounds like he wanted it to be viewed as worse as it was aimed specifically at gay people.

Hence the woman news reporter saying it could be aimed at her as a gobby woman.

Sometimes stressing an aspect on a shooting and murder, comes across as making a similar shooting less important.

Sometimes people object to the idea that the murder if one person is less important than the murder of another, because of some reason or another ( either sexuality, colour of skin or some other reason).

Sometimes for example the suffering of other victims ( not Jewish for example in the holocaust ) is down played.

I don't think people mean to upset others, but it will cause upset if people are made to feel less important.

Because this guy wanted to make their sexuality a big feature it sounds like he played down the Paris one and the newsreaders responded as they did.

[Nearly Sane]

I watched that no idea why Owen Jones got quite so worked up. I think JHB agreed it was an attack on LGBT.

I think it was more (a) the constant questioning about whether this was both a terrorist attack and a specific attack on LGBT people as per his comments that an attack in a synagogue would be immediately called out as anti semitic, (b) the idea that he has somehow suggested tgis was worse than the Paris attacks which was untrue, and (c) the emotion he was feeling. I don't think it was the best way to handle it but I could see why he got annoyed with the idea that is wasn't somehow a deliberate attack on LGBT people which the presenter continued with.

[Nearly Sane]

I think the point being made was that the Paris attack was worse because it involved 100 people rather than 50, whereas he wanted the fact it had happened to gay people to be more prominent.

The problem is that can make it sound as if the reason it was worse is because the victims were gay.

Whereas if it's your relative that gets killed it's pretty much as bad as it gets and their sexuality is irrelevant.

It sounds like he wanted it to be viewed as worse as it was aimed specifically at gay people.

Hence the woman news reporter saying it could be aimed at her as a gobby woman.

Sometimes stressing an aspect on a shooting and murder, comes across as making a similar shooting less important.

Sometimes people object to the idea that the murder if one person is less important than the murder of another, because of some reason or another ( either sexuality, colour of skin or some other reason).

Sometimes for example the suffering of other victims ( not Jewish for example in the holocaust ) is down played.

I don't think people mean to upset others, but it will cause upset if people are made to feel less important.

Because this guy wanted to make their sexuality a big feature it sounds like he played down the Paris one and the newsreaders responded as they did.

  Where does he play down the Paris attacks? He's accused of it incorrectly by the presenter and points out that he didn't say that.

Don't you agree that if it had been an attack on a synagogue there would have been no questioning if a Jewish journalists had said it was anti Semitic?

[Nearly Sane]

I regret to say that my meetings with persons of American nationality, in particualar servicemen, have been far from cordial.

Fellow soldiers dismissed and cowards and useless idioits who, as soon as they got into a fight, call for the Americans to get them out of trouble - usually, funny, not, when 20 or so Bristish soldiers have been doing perfectly well only to see the Yanks come barging in by the hundred and claim the they "were rescuing the Brisish" and having the Yank papers yelling their praises and ignoring the Brits - both the wounded and the dead.

Soldiers lost in friendly fire in Iraq, and Afghanistan (where, during the first months the British Army lost more killed and wounded to the Americans (friendly fire) than the Iraqis)- those Americans who shot them sent home amd given medals and promotions and the British authorities refused permisionb to question the Yanks involved at the inquests on the ground that America does not, and will not, extradite its citizens to face possible criminal charges overseas.

To see a single WWII Victoria cross holder dismissed by a group of about fifteen US marines with enough scrap metal on their chests to sink the Titanic, as a 'lightweight" for having only six ribbons on his chest and being asked where he was wounded to be awarded the putrple one, probably, according to the sergeant for a hangnail, before they walked off laughing. Britih soldiers were restrained from action as being 'bad publicity'.

NS and Trent, until I meet some decent Yanks, I have only met two I can remember and they were as scared of their countrymen as anyone for both these ladies were pagan and witch, I will keep hold of my tar-brush thanks! At least I can go public with my religion without getting death threats!

Anyway, rather than upset the delicate sensibilities of the Yanks and their friends on this side of the Oggin, I'll shut up.

Gah poor pedantry on my part then.

JHB on the Sky News thing.
http://talkradio.co.uk/highlights/julia-hartley-brewer-speaks-out-about-twitter-abuse-after-owen-jones-debate-1606131595

Weren't you the one pulling up people for tarring the police with that brush, something that didn't actually do? Hypocrite and a bigot.

[Bubbles]

I am unaware of what % of the mass shootings carried out are members of the NRA - are you? And you should note that Shaker didn't say they had carried out the shootings, so unsure what your point is?

Where do you get your information about it? Are you sure it's not biased?

I obviously don't visit the same web sites as you.

They have ranges and support safety (just like they do in the uk.)

https://home.nra.org

I don't think you know very much about it.