Author Topic: Gay club attacked in Florida  (Read 24853 times)

Shaker

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #175 on: June 15, 2016, 11:59:21 AM »
They should have no problem then getting this passed?
Not with the Rethuglicans standing in the way.
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BeRational

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #176 on: June 15, 2016, 12:08:17 PM »
Not with the Rethuglicans standing in the way.

They cannot stop the majority will of the people though surely?
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Shaker

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #177 on: June 15, 2016, 12:09:11 PM »
They cannot stop the majority will of the people though surely?
Yes, they very obviously can, and do.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #178 on: June 15, 2016, 12:15:33 PM »
Yes, they very obviously can, and do.

How does this happen

How do they get into positions of power without people voting for them knowing their stance on gun control.

Are these people not  elected?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 01:37:44 PM by BeRational »
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Samuel

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #179 on: June 15, 2016, 01:29:11 PM »
There's no doubt this was a specific attack on gay people but the bigger picture is that it affects non-gay people too because gays have friends and relations who are not gay, who will be horrified and grief stricken.   It affects all of us whatever our sexuality because terrorists will home in on any group.  In this case, a lone gunman, like Breivik in Norway.

Reporting can sometimes be clumsy, I doubt any offence was intended.

Actually I think the bigger picture was the thing Owen Jones was thinking about, and it isn't the broader impacts of terrorism. Its an attitude ingrained in our western, 'civilized' society that is content to marginalize homosexuals and paint issues that affect the gay community as insignificant. It doesn't matter that it was unintentional on behalf of the reporter. His attitude is indicative of the 'bigger picture' the bigger problem. Reducing the Orlando massacre to a terrorist attack emphasizes the 'foreign' threat, form outside, and spectacularly fails to acknowledge the context of the ongoing threat the gay community feel inside their own countries, from their neighbors, fellow citizens and even their government. That is why it matters, and why Owen Jones was so upset.
A lot of people don't believe that the loch ness monster exists. Now, I don't know anything about zooology, biology, geology, herpetology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, marine biology, cryptozoology, palaeontology or archaeology... but I think... what if a dinosaur got into the lake?

Rhiannon

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2016, 01:35:44 PM »
Exactly, Sam. The people interviewed in the SoHo clip talk about wondering if they are safe to show their partners affection in public. That shouldn't be. In the States, some gay people are saying they gave to consider if they are safe going out at all. And that happens here too, we can't pretend it doesn't.

Enki

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2016, 03:30:30 PM »
Actually I think the bigger picture was the thing Owen Jones was thinking about, and it isn't the broader impacts of terrorism. Its an attitude ingrained in our western, 'civilized' society that is content to marginalize homosexuals and paint issues that affect the gay community as insignificant. It doesn't matter that it was unintentional on behalf of the reporter. His attitude is indicative of the 'bigger picture' the bigger problem. Reducing the Orlando massacre to a terrorist attack emphasizes the 'foreign' threat, form outside, and spectacularly fails to acknowledge the context of the ongoing threat the gay community feel inside their own countries, from their neighbors, fellow citizens and even their government. That is why it matters, and why Owen Jones was so upset.

Actually I think you make some very fair points, Sam, but I would probably have a slightly different emphasis. I think that Jones was thinking of the immediate picture, rather than the bigger picture, and he was, understandably, caught up in the emotions that this particular horrific outrage induces. I have no disagreement whatever on your take on the vulnerability of the gay community, and the fact that they feel threatened  both from within and without their own countries, and of course this matters hugely. Let us not forget however that a string of atrocities have shown a variety of groups have been targeted in similar attacks from hate filled and obsessive individuals and groups, from tourists(Ivory Coast), children(Dunblane), youth workers(Breivik), Jews(Kosher Supermarket), journalists(Los Angeles), even the bombing of Government workers(oklahoma City) for instance. And this does not take account of the many indiscriminate killings which have resulted both from gun attacks and bombings. I think the bigger picture is that we are all vulnerable to such attacks from unscrupulous, hate filled individuals and groups.

Sadly, this particular attack, once the emotions have quietened, will take its place amongst the many other attacks, I feel, until the next atrocity emerges.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 03:34:58 PM by enki »
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Owlswing

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2016, 07:12:18 PM »

They cannot stop the majority will of the people though surely?


America has proved on many occasions that money and religious bigotry can stop just about anything! Do you really think that without billions of dollars Trump would be where he is at the moment?
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BeRational

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2016, 11:27:12 PM »
America has proved on many occasions that money and religious bigotry can stop just about anything! Do you really think that without billions of dollars Trump would be where he is at the moment?

Are you saying that the majority of Americans want to change the laws but they are being prevented?
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Brownie

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #184 on: June 16, 2016, 01:27:07 AM »
America has proved on many occasions that money and religious bigotry can stop just about anything! Do you really think that without billions of dollars Trump would be where he is at the moment?

I agree, what's more is that Trump has financed his entire show himself and that gives him a lot of control.  He answers to no-one.

Historically, large sections of the American public have been shut up, not allowed to speak until a later date when everything is done and dusted.  It's far from being a democratic society.
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Sassy

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #185 on: June 16, 2016, 01:39:29 AM »
According to the BBC website, the USA last year had 372 mass shootings (an incident which causes four or more deaths or injuries) in which 475 people died and 1,870 people were injured.

Pat Robertson's comments are despicable. At least Rubio encouraged people to give blood.

Give us his comments:-

We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
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Sassy

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2016, 01:45:05 AM »
I think the point being made was that the Paris attack was worse because it involved 100 people rather than 50, whereas he wanted the fact it had happened to gay people to be more prominent.

The problem is that can make it sound as if the reason it was worse is because the victims were gay.

Whereas if it's your relative that gets killed it's pretty much as bad as it gets and their sexuality is irrelevant.

I agree with you Rose, sexuality is not an issue. What about the 9/11 and the thousands killed in that terrorist attack.
All religions, gays, bi-sexuals, children, young adults... It pretty much scarred everyone who saw it and had family killed in it for life.
Quote
It sounds like he wanted it to be viewed as worse as it was aimed specifically at gay people.

Hence the woman news reporter saying it could be aimed at her as a gobby woman.

No! they cannot do that... this is no worse than the 9/11 or even the Paris incident. All terrorist and hatred of one form or another.
Quote
Sometimes stressing an aspect on a shooting and murder, comes across as making a similar shooting less important.

Sometimes people object to the idea that the murder if one person is less important than the murder of another, because of some reason or another ( either sexuality, colour of skin or some other reason).

Sometimes for example the suffering of other victims ( not Jewish for example in the holocaust ) is down played.

I don't think people mean to upset others, but it will cause upset if people are made to feel less important.

Because this guy wanted to make their sexuality a big feature it sounds like he played down the Paris one and the newsreaders responded as they did.

Very true, again Rose.

We have to see that the evil which killed or these people does not care about right or wrong.
Anyone who is not part of their gang is gun and target fodder.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Brownie

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2016, 01:46:39 AM »
I'd never heard of Pat Robertson or at least I don't remember him but he appears to be quite prominent on the televangelist circuit in the USA.  I found this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/pat-robertson-let-left-kill-themselves-over-confli/

He sounds a bit like Trump.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Owlswing

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2016, 02:31:59 AM »

Are you saying that the majority of Americans want to change the laws but they are being prevented?


The N R A sponsors Senators and Congressmen just as the Unions in this country sponsor MP's and, like the Unions, they expect the people that pay money to to do what they are toild! Especially when the total bill runs to billions.

An article in tgeEvening Standard by a gay American journalist, I think his name was Shaw, just after Orlando was very revealing. You should look it up!
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Owlswing

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2016, 02:35:03 AM »
I agree with you Rose, sexuality is not an issue. What about the 9/11 and the thousands killed in that terrorist attack.
All religions, gays, bi-sexuals, children, young adults... It pretty much scarred everyone who saw it and had family killed in it for life.
No! they cannot do that... this is no worse than the 9/11 or even the Paris incident. All terrorist and hatred of one form or another.
Very true, again Rose.

We have to see that the evil which killed or these people does not care about right or wrong.
Anyone who is not part of their gang is gun and target fodder.

And who hates the LGBT community in America most?

The Christian right! Except they are not right, they are so wrong! Oh except in the Bible upon which they base all their unpleasant beliefs.
The Holy Bible, probably the most diabolical work of fiction ever to be visited upon mankind.

An it harm none, do what you will; an it harm some, do what you must!

Rhiannon

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #190 on: June 16, 2016, 06:45:15 AM »
If this attack were simply about hurting America the gunman would have street yes a mainstream club. The atmosphere in the States is still anti gay enough for the followers of the likes of Pat Robertson to think that on some level God wants this and the killer would have known that. The gunman deliberately hit a gay club. because if his hatred for the LGBT+ community, and quite possibly of what he was himself.

Bubbles

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #191 on: June 16, 2016, 07:48:10 AM »
If this attack were simply about hurting America the gunman would have street yes a mainstream club. The atmosphere in the States is still anti gay enough for the followers of the likes of Pat Robertson to think that on some level God wants this and the killer would have known that. The gunman deliberately hit a gay club. because if his hatred for the LGBT+ community, and quite possibly of what he was himself.

Apparently he did think of targeting Disney World  :(

Bubbles

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #192 on: June 16, 2016, 07:54:33 AM »
Pat Robinson has made a statement

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Contrary to some news reports, Pat Robertson did not make any statements about the tragic shooting in Orlando.  The comments that are being reported were taken from a satire website and reported as if they were true.  CBN has asked for an apology from those news outlets and the CBN legal team will be reviewing this matter.

Earlier today, Gordon Robertson, the CEO of the Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN) issued the following statement on the terrorist attack in Orlando, Florida:

“Today, we mourn the deaths of innocent Americans who were murdered by an Islamic terrorist in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. The attack appears to be well planned and specifically targeted against the gay community.  There is no justification for this terrible act of violence.  All people, regardless of sexual orientation, have the absolute right to be secure and live safely in the United States of America. We at CBN strongly condemn this act of violence and offer our condolences to the loved ones of all those killed or injured. We also commend the Orlando Police and the FBI for their swift response, ending this nightmare and saving the lives of those they could.”



http://www.patrobertson.com/recentnews/CBNClarifiesThatStatementsAttributedToPatRobertsonAreUntrue.asp

normally I probably wouldn't have a good word for him, but if he didn't make a comment, then he is innocent IMO.

If something is untrue, then it's untrue.

Untruths should be acknowledged, even if the guy accused, isn't our cup of tea.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 07:56:52 AM by Rose »

Rhiannon

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #193 on: June 16, 2016, 07:56:48 AM »
Apparently he did think of targeting Disney World  :(

According to an article in the Sun. Even if he had considered it, he didn't; he attacked a gay club.

Bubbles

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #194 on: June 16, 2016, 07:59:42 AM »
According to an article in the Sun. Even if he had considered it, he didn't; he attacked a gay club.

It's not just the sun, many media outlets reported it

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679587/Wife-Orlando-Pulse-terror-Omar-Mateen-police-Disney-World-attack

His wife seems to have been the source

Nearly Sane

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #195 on: June 16, 2016, 08:06:10 AM »
Pat Robinson has made a statement

normally I probably wouldn't have a good word for him, but if he didn't make a comment, then he is innocent IMO.

If something is untrue, then it's untrue.

Untruths should be acknowledged, even if the guy accused, isn't our cup of tea.


The link that I originally put up was a satire but whether he is innocent is another matter - the link that Brownie put up was correct

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/pat-robertson-let-left-kill-themselves-over-confli/

Also more details here

http://www.snopes.com/2016/06/15/pat-robertson-orlando-shooting-comments/

floo

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #196 on: June 16, 2016, 08:29:41 AM »
I'd never heard of Pat Robertson or at least I don't remember him but he appears to be quite prominent on the televangelist circuit in the USA.  I found this:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/14/pat-robertson-let-left-kill-themselves-over-confli/

He sounds a bit like Trump.

Robertson is a highly unpleasant extreme 'christian' who brings the faith into disrepute. His views wouldn't disgrace ISIS!

JP

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #197 on: June 16, 2016, 08:57:34 AM »
Maybe the gay club was just a softer target?

He may have done a recce or two hence his being in the club at a previous time. He may also have been to Disney and decided against it. I would expect Disney have plans in place to deal with such an event where as the gay club would probably not.

 
How can something so perfect be so flawed.

floo

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #198 on: June 16, 2016, 09:00:45 AM »
Maybe the gay club was just a softer target?

He may have done a recce or two hence his being in the club at a previous time. He may also have been to Disney and decided against it. I would expect Disney have plans in place to deal with such an event where as the gay club would probably not.

One would hope so, but wouldn't bank on  it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Gay club attacked in Florida
« Reply #199 on: June 16, 2016, 09:28:14 AM »
It's not just the sun, many media outlets reported it

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679587/Wife-Orlando-Pulse-terror-Omar-Mateen-police-Disney-World-attack

His wife seems to have been the source

So it seems he went to Disney when it was hosting an event for gay people.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen/