Who Is English?

[Jack Knave]

I was having this chat with an African guy, who was at work, and gave me the impression that he'd been here sometime and was thinking of becoming a citizen and all that. What he asked me was would he become British or English if he was successful in his application? The obvious answer is British. But he then went on to ask who is English? For example, he said, would a foreigner who came to England 200 or so years ago and who's subsequent generations had stayed and lived in England up to the present day, would they be English or British. I couldn't answer him. I thought British. Then he asked me who is English and I was stumped. Except for the obvious answer of the very, very long term white guy and woman I couldn't think what the actual definition or rules were to assess this. Any thoughts, anyone?

Also, what is the difference between the terms Britain and UK.

[Aruntraveller]

This explains the difference between the terms:

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/

As to who is English - who knows, we are a mongrel lot that's for sure.

[Jack Knave]

This explains the difference between the terms:

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2011/08/whats-the-difference-between-uk-britain-and-british-isles/

As to who is English - who knows, we are a mongrel lot that's for sure.

I gather from that that the terms Britain and UK mean the same thing.

So there is no definition when a foreigner's generational offspring become English then? Because if we are mongrels and also English there must be some point when our ancestors became English.

[Nearly Sane]

What's English and what is its relevance?

[Aruntraveller]

I gather from that that the terms Britain and UK mean the same thing.

So there is no definition when a foreigner's generational offspring become English then? Because if we are mongrels and also English there must be some point when our ancestors became English.

Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.

[Nearly Sane]

Why is it important?

[Rhiannon]

Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.

And the IoM.

[Rhiannon]

It's all a construct isn't it, national identity? I know what 'English' feels like to me but it might not to anyone else.

It matters enough to me to know where I come from to have traced my family tree (I'm a mix of rural English and Irish) but it doesn't tell me who I am.

[Rhiannon]

Rain. Rain is English. And green. Oak and ash trees, primroses and elder bushes.To me, at any rate. So that probably says something about Englishness, for me.

I know this isn't what Jack asked, but NS asked what is important about English and if we choose to identify as something I suppose it matters why. And I identify with the landscape where I live. But that's just me. And I wasn't born here, although some of my ancestors were, I've since discovered.

[Brownie]

I  think someone who is born in England is English*.  Someone who comes here and takes permanent citizenship is British but their children, if born here, will be English.

The same applies for Scottish, Welsh etc.

*If someone is born abroad of English parents who are temporarily working abroad on contract, they will be English.

English are a mixture, I doubt there are many pure bred anglo-saxons around today.

[Rhiannon]

I  think someone who is born in England is English*.  Someone who comes here and takes permanent citizenship is British but their children, if born here, will be English.

The same applies for Scottish, Welsh etc.

*If someone is born abroad of English parents who are temporarily working abroad on contract, they will be English.

English are a mixture, I doubt there are many pure bred anglo-saxons around today.

I argued this on here once. We had a British Asian posting then who said that was how he identified, not as English, even though he was born in England. So it's a matter of choice, at least until the Union breaks up.

I don't think 'English' has any real meaning unless you want to play some international sports. Even if there were to be some kind of English independence referendum I'm guessing it would go on residency and not place of birth. It means something to me personally but it's of no relevance really.

[Shaker]

I argued this on here once. We had a British Asian posting then who said that was how he identified, not as English, even though he was born in England. So it's a matter of choice, at least until the Union breaks up.

I wouldn't dream of interfering with anybody's right to identify however they wish. Personally, I identify as English since Britain is a collective term for three different nations, one of which I've never even visited yet (Scotland). Given that a third of the term doesn't apply I don't quite see the logic in identifying as British. I've spent a great deal of time in Wales and have loved every nanosecond of it, but I can't get away with identifying as Welsh, and given that I've dabbled in genealogy on and off for some years and have traced my family tree back to the mid-18th century, with everyone thus far from within the same relatively narrow band of middle England (they didn't move around much, my ancestors), English is all I can call myself. British seems like an abstraction to me that doesn't really gel.

The following is something I contributed to another forum a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away on this subject:

My completely and utterly unscientific and purely anecdotal personal experience indicates that somebody such as, say, Sir Anthony Hopkins will be referred to (in newspapers, magazines, reference works, etc.) as a Welsh actor and Billy Connolly as a Scottish comedian, but frequently English people end up being tagged with 'British.' I wonder why?

I just conducted an experiment: I went onto Wikipedia and picked literally the first three Welsh, Scottish and English names I could think of, off the top of my head, to search for. I came up with:

Sir Philip Anthony Hopkins, CBE (born 31 December 1937) is a Welsh actor of film, stage, and television, and a composer.

Sir Thomas Sean Connery KBE (born 25 August 1930) is a Scottish actor and producer.   

David Terence Puttnam, Baron Puttnam, CBE, FRSA (born 25 February 1941) is a British film producer and educator.   

Repeating the process (which you can do almost ad infinitum) does reveal some curious inconsistencies, however:

David Robert Joseph Beckham OBE (born 2 May 1975) is an English former footballer.   
   
Dylan Marlais Thomas (27 October 1914 – 9 November 1953) was a British poet and writer   

(Most people, I'd argue, would think of Thomas as definitively and quintessentially Welsh).

Ralph Vaughan Williams OM (12 October 1872 – 26 August 1958) was an English composer.   

William Somerset Maugham CH (25 January 1874 – 16 December 1965) was a British playwright, novelist and short story writer.   

William Shakespeare (26 April 1564 (baptised) – 23 April 1616) was an English poet and playwright.

Horatio Nelson, 1st Viscount Nelson, KB (29 September 1758 – 21 October 1805) was a British flag officer.   


The contributors to Wikipedia at least seem to treat Welsh and Scottish identities as distinct and discrete, but English and British frequently as interchangeable.

[Nearly Sane]

Rain. Rain is English. And green. Oak and ash trees, primroses and elder bushes.To me, at any rate. So that probably says something about Englishness, for me.
I know this isn't what Jack asked, but NS asked what is important about English and if we choose to identify as something I suppose it matters why. And I identify with the landscape where I live. But that's just me. And I wasn't born here, although some of my ancestors were, I've since discovered.

So despite the fact that I grew up in a town that gets three times the average rainfall of England, you claim that's English?

[Rhiannon]

So despite the fact that I grew up in a town that gets three times the average rainfall of England, you claim that's English?

No, of course not. I thought I was pretty clear about this being a very subjective, personal thing. There's something about liking rain that feels a part of my own personal Englishness for no logical reason other than it does. It also rains like mad in Ireland; I'm part Irish but can't identify as such. Other people will claim to feel English eating bacon and eggs on the Costa del Sol. It doesn't have much meaning except the one we choose to give it.

I can remember coming back from a holiday on the med somewhere and driving away from Gatwick in the rain and green and thinking that rain and green were a part of home, and home was and is England. Doesn't mean anything outside of what it means to me.

[Shaker]

I can remember coming back from a holiday on the med somewhere and driving away from Gatwick in the rain and green and thinking that rain and green were a part of home, and home was and is England. Doesn't mean anything outside of what it means to me.

I've had people say that very thing to me when they've been abroad to notably arid parts of the world - they come back home, and of course it rains a lot (like now, for example) and of course they/we bitch and moan about it, but it also means greenery and lots of it.

[Nearly Sane]

So this reads to me like it's meaningless


ETA - which may be the point in the end, but again as previously covered there's an issue where 'true for me' tells you nothing and shuts down debate

[Brownie]

I don't think it does mean that much to anyone NS (except those who go around waving patriotic banners or maybe at times like the world cup, or the last night of the Proms :-), in any case it isn't terribly important.  However, if I was asked I'd describe myself as ''British English'', sometimes you have to tick a box on a form.
I'm a European too!

[Rhiannon]

Well it clearly means something to some people. And not always in an ugly, superior nationalistic way, although it can be.

But what it means is personal and individual. My mother identifies as a Londoner and her sense of Englishness has very little to do with verdant countryside. And what it means to the individual doesn't matter to anyone else unless those others choose to make it matter.

[Bubbles]

Anyone can become British, but not everyone can become Scottish, Irish, Welsh, or English or even Cornish come to that.

It comes down as much as to whether other people perceive you as such.

Racist or not, people tend to mean white indigenous people because being Cornish or English etc is a more personal thing than just being British.

It's fairly universal IMO.

Even if I was born in India a lot of Indians wouldn't see me as an Indian. I could wear a sari, but I'd look different, customs or no.

Same with China or Japan.

I wonder how long it would take to be fully regarded as Japanese?
I don't think I ever would, no matter what my passport or the law says.
Being English or Scottish also means sharing a perceived culture but that does vary.

It is racist because it has tribal roots.

If you were black or brown you would have trouble passing off as Cornish.

It's not you can't claim it, or that the culture and accent isn't there, it's the majority won't accept you.

However somewhere like Birmingham which has large numbers of foreign different ethnic communities, you might get away with saying you were a " Brummi " however

In Somerset, Devon and Cornwall you wouldn't totally be accepted as a local white indigenous person would be.

Sometimes Cornish people take the piss out of people from Bristol and even in Somerset among the older generation anyone north of Bristol is considered a foreigner

Birmingham is " up north"

It's not just my perception of Somerset though, I was once teased by a Yorkshireman while in Yorkshire for being a foreigner because I came from Somerset.

I think he had encountered the old Somerset attitude ( or old Yorkshiremen have the same attitude to those in the south)

Basically being accepted into personalised groups is as much about others accepting you, as what you claim.

English is a bit wider than say Cornish or from Somerset, but there is a general perception of what someone is like and if your face doesn't fit, people won't see you as Cornish.

I think it's the same in Some parts of Wales.

Plus in some places it's not just about where you are born but where the generations of your family were based.

That's another aspect.

I think lots of ethnic groups in the uk retain their own personal identity on top of their own British one, because they recognise the difficulty of being recognised as say Welsh.

So people are British and Pakistani at the same time.

[Bubbles]

Well it clearly means something to some people. And not always in an ugly, superior nationalistic way, although it can be.

But what it means is personal and individual. My mother identifies as a Londoner and her sense of Englishness has very little to do with verdant countryside. And what it means to the individual doesn't matter to anyone else unless those others choose to make it matter.

Yes my mother identifies as a cockney( born within the sound of bow bells), even though she was an evacuee to Somerset as a child and never went back.

She was considered most definately a foreigner in Somerset, I don't think she ever feels she is Somerset the way my dad is.

She's been there for at least 65 years.

She still sees herself as a cockney.  She has relatives in London ( as well as Somerset)

That's her identity.

[Bubbles]

I thought this was interesting

The exact nature of the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons and their relationship with the Romano-British is a matter of debate. Traditionally, it was believed that a mass invasion by various Anglo-Saxon tribes largely displaced the indigenous British population in southern and eastern Great Britain (modern-day England with the exception of Cornwall). This was supported by the writings of Gildas, the only contemporary historical account of the period, describing slaughter and starvation of native Britons by invading tribes (aduentus Saxonum).[37] Furthermore, the English language contains no more than a handful of words borrowed from Brythonic sources.[38]

However, this view has been re-evaluated by some archaeologists and historians since the 1960s; and more recently supported by genetic studies,[26] which see only minimal evidence for mass displacement. Archaeologist Francis Pryor has stated that he "can't see any evidence for bona fide mass migrations after the Neolithic."[39]

While the historian Malcolm Todd writes "It is much more likely that a large proportion of the British population remained in place and was progressively dominated by a Germanic aristocracy, in some cases marrying into it and leaving Celtic names in the, admittedly very dubious, early lists of Anglo-Saxon dynasties. But how we identify the surviving Britons in areas of predominantly Anglo-Saxon settlement, either archaeologically or linguistically, is still one of the deepest problems of early English history."[40]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_people

Maybe the English are not as big a mix of nationalities as was originally thought.

[floo]

I describe myself as British and would do so, if heaven help me, I was all English instead of half English. My husband is completely English but would always use the term British and so would my kids who were born in England.

Many with the 'little white englander' mentality think they are a cut above those of the rest of the union! 

[Harrowby Hall]

Then you need to go back and read it then because you haven't read it properly. Britain refers to England and Wales - Great Britain to England, Scotland and Wales. For the UK you add Northern Ireland and for the British Isles add Eire.

Not quite. It is a little more complex than that. I disagree with the OS definition in one respect - and that comes from history.

"Great Britain" is a geographical term. It is the name of the large island to the north of Brittany (Small Britain?). The distinction which was Roman in origin still remains in French - Bretagne and Grande Bretagne. Self- aggrandisement by many of its natives has led to the conception that the "Great" in Great Britain is a qualitative rather than a quantitative appellation.

There are three countries - each with distinct national identities on the island of Great Britain. The name for the political entity which governs these three countries (together with Northern Ireland) is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.  The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are regarded as parts of the British archipelago for historic and cultural reasons, are not parts of the United Kingdom but retain their own identity as Crown Dependencies - effectively self-governing colonies.

Should Scotland remove itself from the United Kingdom it will still be part of Great Britain.

[Harrowby Hall]

Shaker

Your list culled from Wikipedia is fine as far as it goes, but fails to recognise that Wikipedia does not really have any strong editorial policy over the way its entries are presented and the nationality of subjects of its entries is really a matter for the people who have chosen to submit or amend the entries.

Can I add the following entry for consideration?

Sir Antonio "Tony" Pappano (born 30 December 1959) is a British-Italian conductor and pianist, music director of the Royal Opera House since 2002.

Sir Antonio Pappano was born in London where his family were established. Hence he is British by birth. Until a couple of weeks ago he was described in Wikipedia as "an English conductor". When he was in his early teens, his family moved to the USA and eventually he acquired US citizenship. He recently became a naturalised Italian citizen (after all, it is his heritage.) He has three nationalities.

He is a frequent television performer and presenter and it is clear that he is confident and comfortable in each of his three national identities.

By the way, Anthony Hopkins is also an American citizen, and your list should not include William Shakespeare since he was born before the union of Scotland with England and the national identity "British" did not exist then.


If I am questioned I will state that I am English rather than British. There is a quality of "Englishness" that I treasure - but for the life of me I cannot explain what it is. And there have been two Americans who settled in this country who, to me, anyway, became very English. They were T S Eliot and Yehudi Menuhin.

[Aruntraveller]

There is a quality of "Englishness" that I treasure - but for the life of me I cannot explain what it is

I feel much the same way.

Shaker and I touched on this on another thread when discussing Vaughan Williams' 'The Lark Asceending' and the poem 'Adlestrop' - both of which go some, although, not all the way to defining what I feel about Englishness. I fully accept that this is totally personal and for other people it will be other things that trigger that feeling.