Who Is English?

[Rhiannon]

HH, I very much agree with you as to treasuring being English. It's not a pride thing, I'm not proud to be English. It's more a way to understand myself and what speaks to me I suppose.

I object to Floo's assumption that Englishness means bigotry. Some English are like that but you find it in every nationality. And identifying as 'British' doesn't confer immunity from it - hence the BNP and elements of UKIP.

[L.A.]

What could be more English than the great music of Gustav Holst and Edward Elgar.

[Rhiannon]

Eating fish and chips in the car parked up by the coast somewhere, in a torrential downpour.

[Brownie]

I agree with your last two posts Rhiannon and also with being a Londoner which is more a part of me than the English.   However it is only by accident of birth that I'm English, I could have been born somewhere else;  Englishness is not something I have achieved.  However I like it well enough, can't imagine anything else which is a natural enough feeling.  I like it here too, wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
The far right carry it to a whole new level which makes no sense to most of us.

[floo]

HH, I very much agree with you as to treasuring being English. It's not a pride thing, I'm not proud to be English. It's more a way to understand myself and what speaks to me I suppose.

I object to Floo's assumption that Englishness means bigotry. Some English are like that but you find it in every nationality. And identifying as 'British' doesn't confer immunity from it - hence the BNP and elements of UKIP.

Where did I say that ALL the English are like that? My husband and children certainly aren't! I was talking about those with the 'little white englander' approach, who are nasty.

[floo]

I agree with your last two posts Rhiannon and also with being a Londoner which is more a part of me than the English.   However it is only by accident of birth that I'm English, I could have been born somewhere else;  Englishness is not something I have achieved.  However I like it well enough, can't imagine anything else which is a natural enough feeling.  I like it here too, wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
The far right carry it to a whole new level which makes no sense to most of us.

We are all what we are by accident of birth, which does make us special in any way.

[Rhiannon]

Where did I say that ALL the English are like that? My husband and children certainly aren't! I was talking about those with the 'little white englander' approach, who are nasty.

No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.

[Harrowby Hall]

What could be more English than the great music of Gustav Holst and Edward Elgar.

Elgar is English - but he is also our great international composer. His influences were German, and he was a friend and admirer of Gabriel Faure. His closest musical friend was August Jaeger (Nimrod - who died too early and whose family changed their name to "Hunter" in 1914). I sometimes think that it is our assertion that Elgar is "English" that has prevented much of the rest of the world recognising his greatness. I prefer Mark Elder's observation that Elgar is "the English Mahler" (although I would have preferred it if he had described Mahler as "the central European Elgar").

I think that the most "English" composer - paradoxically - is Frederick Delius.

[Shaker]

I would have to nominate Vaughan Williams for that laurel - given his influences, predominantly English Tudor polyphony and (especially) traditional folk song.

There are plenty of others who come close (such as RVW's chum Gerald Finzi, English-born but of a Sephardic Jewish Italian heritage), and then there's another of his mates, Herbert Howells. RVW's closest friend Holst has already been mentioned. (Not very fun fact: Howells, Holst and RVW were all from Gloucestershire). But RVW claims the prize hands down, surely.

HH correctly points out that Elgar's musical toolkit was basically German (think Brahms), something equally true (or even more so) of two great composers thought of as quintessentially English, Parry (wrote a 'Cambridge' Symphony, an 'English' Symphony and of course the tune for Jerusalem)  and Stanford (though he was born in Ireland). Much of RVW's work, especially in the early period was modal, built as it was on modal tunes as found in folk song. It became so much a part of hs musical vocabulary that he could effortlessly write original tunes that sound like folk song even though they're actually not. (The central section of The Lark Ascending being a case in point).

[Brownie]

No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.

I think floo was saying there are some people who have the ''Little Englander'' attitude.  We've all met them.  They can lead us to be a bit defensive and not particularly want to identify as ''English'' because it might align us with them.  I remember once someone saying to me ''Just think, we used to be an Empire!'' in an exasperated way and my response was, ''Who wants an empire??  Anyway, I'm a European and glad to be''.  Hee hee.  A bit of an overreaction on my part but he was doing a bit of an Alf-Garnett.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Eating fish and chips in the car parked up by the coast somewhere, in a torrential downpour.

British, most definitely British, I think I could travel to the four corners of this island and find someone who has experienced that little joy

The smell of vinegar, the windows misting up, fish and chips, the ultimate comfort food.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

And those little wooden forks ...

[floo]

No, what you seem to be saying is that the English who identify as such have a little Englander mentality rather than the English who identify as British, such as your family. It's difficult to see what else you mean.

The ones who think their Englishness is a cut above the rest, especially if their skin is white, have an unpleasant mentality, imo.

[ippy]

Whenever I have to declare nationality I'm always English first followed by the Brit or UK citizen, it's a feeling can't give a rational explanation.

Someone in the family found we have been here for 200 years, and came here from somewhere in Flanders, so My ancestors could be either Belgian, French or Dutch.

We seem to have historic heroes like What Tyler the Tolpuddle Martyrs and the Levellers, all looking for fair play and we seem to be the ones that have initiated so many kinds of sport, but then so have so many countries have similar heroes and attributes, fair play for all and the freedom of the individual does seem to figure rather strongly in our culture, I don't know exactly.

Another thing I have noticed if you're English and you travel all over the world it's amazing how many foreigners there are living in all the various parts of this world?

I mean places like Scotland Wales and Ireland, packed full of bloody foreigners.   

Sorry about that I started off all right

ippy

[Rhiannon]

The ones who think their Englishness is a cut above the rest, especially if their skin is white, have an unpleasant mentality, imo.

Yes but it's not exclusively an English problem, and it's not remedied by adopting the term 'British' either.

[floo]

Yes but it's not exclusively an English problem, and it's not remedied by adopting the term 'British' either.

We are British so why not use the term?

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Dear ippy,

Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait

Gonnagle.

I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count?

[BeRational]

I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count?

Which football team do you support is a possible test.

[Nearly Sane]

We are British so why not use the term?

Because given Northern Ireland it doesn't represent any nationality. Be better with UKish

[Gordon]

Seems to me that what people self-identify as their nationality within the mix of UK countries is a mix of place of birth, parental place of birth, family domicile(s) historically and their current/long-term adult domicile.

In some cases, like mine, they may all coincide for most of the time - so I identify as Scottish in spite of spending 6 years in England during my childhood, but I don't consider myself any more Scottish than a friend of mine (like me in his mid-60s) who was born in England, as were his parents and grandparents, but at the age of 7 he moved to Scotland and stayed: he identifies himself as Scottish.

Some may see their place of birth as being more important to them than their domicile where these are different, whereas others might regard where they are/have been domiciled for most of the time as being 'home'.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Go on admit it, you have a Scottish granny or a third cousin who is Scottish, something about the English they all want to be in some small part Scottish, envy is a very unpleasant trait

Gonnagle.

My maternal grandfather was a Scot, even worse he was fully Scottish.

My paternal grandmother was half Irish.

Apart from those my siblings and I are a perfect set of English citizens.

Now Gonners, now about 1966?

ippy

[ippy]

I have a Scottish aunt by marriage, and a Scottish son-in-law, does that count?

Definitely all bloody foreigners, especially any Irish bits.

ippy

[ippy]

Seems to me that what people self-identify as their nationality within the mix of UK countries is a mix of place of birth, parental place of birth, family domicile(s) historically and their current/long-term adult domicile.

In some cases, like mine, they may all coincide for most of the time - so I identify as Scottish in spite of spending 6 years in England during my childhood, but I don't consider myself any more Scottish than a friend of mine (like me in his mid-60s) who was born in England, as were his parents and grandparents, but at the age of 7 he moved to Scotland and stayed: he identifies himself as Scottish.

Some may see their place of birth as being more important to them than their domicile where these are different, whereas others might regard where they are/have been domiciled for most of the time as being 'home'.

Have you ever considerered becoming naturalized English?

The six years living in England would probably go in your favour.

ippy

[Nearly Sane]

My maternal grandfather was a Scot, even worse he was fully Scottish.

My paternal grandmother was half Irish.

Apart from those my siblings and I are a perfect set of English citizens.

Now Gonners, now about 1966?

ippy

That would be the year before 1967?