Author Topic: MP shot and stabbed  (Read 18078 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2016, 07:45:55 AM »

Really? So there are people out there saying 'go kill an MP?'
Apparently there is more intimidation of MP's and this MP than people may have thought.....see news reports this morning.

Sassy

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2016, 07:50:34 AM »
I noticed the guy they have arrested is only at present a SUSPECT.
But how they have used it to represent the group he is part of as one against the Brexit is ridiculous.
When it comes to politics they should leave such things out and concentrate on what has happened to poor Jo.

It is disgusting to use such a tragedy thinking it may affect the British Voters.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2016, 08:03:17 AM »
Apparently there is more intimidation of MP's and this MP than people may have thought.....see news reports this morning.
I am aware of that, and its irrelevant to trying to pin the blame on rhetoric here.

jakswan

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2016, 08:05:10 AM »
I think that you are wrong. This murder will not be forgotten. It is not just another random tragedy.

It strikes at the heart of our democratic process. It is using violence to achieve a political end - even though it may involve just some deranged individual it is mimicking what some of us see happening in the USA. It is an affront to our political ideals as well as a personal tragedy.

And it happened because a second-rate prime minister had serious party management problems ...  The rancour, distortions and appalling behaviour that this referendum has created have all damaged the public face of political life - perhaps seriously. But that this should lead to the murder of a Member of Parliament who was just doing her normal activities as an elected representative is an unspeakable degradation of democracy

No it happened because [insert political agenda here].

Politics has lost an intelligent committed politician which is a tragedy, however this loss is nothing compared to her children or husband and other close friends and family.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2016, 08:19:52 AM »
I noticed the guy they have arrested is only at present a SUSPECT.
But how they have used it to represent the group he is part of as one against the Brexit is ridiculous.
When it comes to politics they should leave such things out and concentrate on what has happened to poor Jo.

It is disgusting to use such a tragedy thinking it may affect the British Voters.
If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2016, 08:22:22 AM »
I think when the full facts emerge, it will turn-out that it happened because a person with serious mental health problems (and access to a gun) got wound-up by the extreme language being used by people who really ought to know better.
I agree - and when you unleash the politics of hatred (even if you abhor violence) you cannot control it and the consequences can be tragic.

Hope

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2016, 08:23:33 AM »
May I change the direction of the thread a tad, and ask how people feel that this could impact on our ability to meet and interact with our political representatives?  Some amazing tributes from across the political spectrum on BBC Breakfast this morning, but also a very interesting interview with Stephen Timms.

Just before I finish, here's an interesting fact about the family - taken from wikipedia -

"Cox's family divided their time between their constituency home and a houseboat (a converted barge) on the Thames, moored near Tower Bridge, London."
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Nearly Sane

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2016, 08:25:45 AM »
If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.


Indeed we do but that's irrelevant to Sassy's post. There is a rush to associate the person who committed this atrocity with people he might have had some political thoughts in common with that those same people would disavow if it were done by others about Muslims

floo

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2016, 08:27:09 AM »
What a terrible crime, I hope the evil perpetrator is locked up for the rest of his life.

Brownie

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2016, 08:28:55 AM »
I doubt this will change the way we interact with our MPs Hope, it was a one off by someone who was unhinged.  Of course we hope there will be no copycat attack, that does happen.

I knew about the houseboat home but wonder why you find that such an interesting fact?  I read what you quoted and thought you were going on to say something further.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2016, 08:30:58 AM »

Indeed we do but that's irrelevant to Sassy's post. There is a rush to associate the person who committed this atrocity with people he might have had some political thoughts in common with that those same people would disavow if it were done by others about Muslims
I don't agree - using islam as an example -  think it is perfectly reasonable to recognise that a prime motivation for islamic extremist terrorist act is the islamic faith of the perpetrators. Indeed not to do so is disingenuous. But that does not mean, of course, that all muslims are terrorists.

Likewise recognising that the motivations here may involve extreme right wing view and hatred of the liberal left is relevant. That does not mean that all right-wingers are likewise implicated - that is absurd.

L.A.

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2016, 08:32:05 AM »

Really? So there are people out there saying 'go kill an MP?'

The stuff that the organisation 'Britain First' churn-out is pretty  bad, with some of the UKIP rhetoric coming a close second.

No, of course no one actually advocates murdering MPs but a person with severe mental health issues who takes this crap seriously might well conclude that assassination would be justified.
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floo

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2016, 08:32:40 AM »
((((("Cox's family divided their time between their constituency home and a houseboat (a converted barge) on the Thames, moored near Tower Bridge, London.")))))

What on earth has that got to do with this appalling crime?

Sassy

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2016, 08:33:52 AM »
If his political views and the difference between his views and Jo Cox's is relevant in the investigation then, quite rightly, it needs to be raised and investigated. This wasn't merely a random attack - what are the chance that a random member of the public attacked in the street happens to be your MP? No this was a deliberate attack on her and we need to know why.

Till they have evidence he did it, the political views should remains secondry.
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Hope

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2016, 08:34:44 AM »
I knew about the houseboat home but wonder why you find that such an interesting fact?  I read what you quoted and thought you were going on to say something further.
I wasn't trying to lighten the atmosphere in a 'silly' way, but thought some might be interested in the wider picture.  Regarding the issue of security, there was an immediate reaction to eurity following the attack on Stephen Timms, and he wondered whether this might lead to more stringent security.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2016, 08:36:37 AM »
I don't agree - using islam as an example -  think it is perfectly reasonable to recognise that a prime motivation for islamic extremist terrorist act is the islamic faith of the perpetrators. Indeed not to do so is disingenuous. But that does not mean, of course, that all muslims are terrorists.

Likewise recognising that the motivations here may involve extreme right wing view and hatred of the liberal left is relevant. That does not mean that all right-wingers are likewise implicated - that is absurd.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2016, 08:43:17 AM »
The stuff that the organisation 'Britain First' churn-out is pretty  bad, with some of the UKIP rhetoric coming a close second.

No, of course no one actually advocates murdering MPs but a person with severe mental health issues who takes this crap seriously might well conclude that assassination would be justified.
Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2016, 09:05:59 AM »
Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.
Mental health may provide a justification as to why they might resort to violence, but it isn't a motivation. We should not stop asking about motivation because someone has mental health issues. And remember this wasn't a random attack from a mad person on an unfortunate random member of the public who happened to be in the wrong place.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2016, 09:07:20 AM »
Till they have evidence he did it, the political views should remains secondry.
I don't think it is in doubt that he did it, albeit because of the judicial process the police will be very careful in the wording they use.

Rhiannon

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2016, 09:12:23 AM »
Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.

It seems he had an interest in white supremacism and apartheid. He subscribed to a South African pro-apartheid publication that had a big thing in why Britain should vote leave in its latest issue.

None of which means that blame attaches to Fsrage et al. That said, the manipulative, overheated rhetoric of the Brexit camp leaves a nasty taste and it has stoked an atmosphere in which the far right is in danger of becoming mainstream.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2016, 09:20:48 AM »
This sort of causal suggestion isn't warranted by the evidence we currently have. And I think linking it to Cameron at all is ludicrous. A number of fairly sensible people I know have gone all Chicken Licken about this. It's a tragedy. We get a lot of them
 Extrapolating from them is difficult unless there is pattern.

My intention was not to present a "causal suggestion".

The Conservative Party is split down the middle. It has had serious management problems for many years. Since John Major stood down William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Howard and David Cameron have each found themselves elected party leader, their main qualification for that office being that none of them was named Kenneth Clarke.

Since he became prime minister, David Cameron has demonstrated that party interests come first. The rational consequence of the Scottish referendum would have been to hold a constitutional convention which would look at all aspects of the governance of the United Kingdom - self-government, regional government, the nature of the second chamber, the electoral system and so on .... and this would include the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union. He decided instead on a quick fix - EVAL because he perceived a built-in permanent Conservative majority in England.

I consider that his primary intention in calling a referendum was to put the right-wing of his party in their place. He reasoned that a majority of the electorate would vote Remain and that would kick the matter into touch.

What, I think, no-one anticipated has been the rancorous, destructive, nasty campaign which has emerged. There has been little rational discussion of the factors which should determine an individual to vote to leave or to remain but accusations of bullying and lying and cheating.

Mrs Cox appears to have been a decent, humane, caring and compassionate woman and a dedicated Member of Parliament. She was engaged in her duties in her constituency. If reports of the attack upon her are true, her killer shouted something like Britain first. I am very sure that he was mentally unstable. But I am also sure that his mental condition had been further affected by the intellectual violence that has characterised this referendum campaign.

In a world less dominated by partisan in-fighting this referendum would never have been called.




Edit: Correction of typographical error
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 10:20:42 AM by Harrowby Hall »
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L.A.

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2016, 09:25:51 AM »
Someone with severe mental difficulties might find anything would justify this. The point is that they have severe mental difficulties.

Exactly, I'm not sure what your point is.

I have certainly encountered characters, generally in dark corners of pubs, with extreme views and no obvious signs of sanity. Generally they are harmless, but wind them up and give them a gun - and I wouldn't like to be around.
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Harrowby Hall

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2016, 09:27:50 AM »

Politics has lost an intelligent committed politician which is a tragedy, however this loss is nothing compared to her children or husband and other close friends and family.

I agree entirely.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2016, 09:28:33 AM »
So if it is a Muslim committing an atrocity it = Radicalisation by Islam

If it's a white guy it = mental health issues.

Don't you just love the consistency of approach.
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jakswan

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Re: MP shot and stabbed
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2016, 09:31:29 AM »
It seems he had an interest in white supremacism and apartheid. He subscribed to a South African pro-apartheid publication that had a big thing in why Britain should vote leave in its latest issue.

None of which means that blame attaches to Fsrage et al. That said, the manipulative, overheated rhetoric of the Brexit camp leaves a nasty taste and it has stoked an atmosphere in which the far right is in danger of becoming mainstream.

We get the politicians we deserve, there is genuine concern with traditional labour support about immigration, the centre left failed to engage with this concern (e.g. Brown 'that bigoted woman') for tribal reasons this support is unable to move to supporting Tories, enter UKIP.

I'm concerned about UKIP what is more concerning is that very many on the left will attempt to shut down any debate over immigration by name calling.
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