MP shot and stabbed

[Nearly Sane]

Dunno do you think Muslims feel guilty for Islamic extremists? Personally I think that would be daft, any ideology that one might follow should not be judged by an extreme version of it.

From what I have heard of Jo Cox she was comfortable dealing with Tories as Labour and was not at all tribal, you should learn a lesson in this regard.

given that wigginghall specifically notes that the impression may be incorrect, I fail to see the justification for your response here.

[Rhiannon]

I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.

Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.

Yes. There's a difference when someone deliberately sets out to end life and cause suffering to as many as possible.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes. There's a difference when someone deliberately sets out to end life and cause suffering to as many as possible.

in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?

[SqueakyVoice]

in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?

The difference is that many MPs now seem to think that being threatened and attacked is an occupational hazard.

MPs (of all parties) are reacting to one of their own being murdered.  Anyone could die in a car crash. Anyone could die from cancer. Only an MP can be killed on the way to meet their constituents.

[Nearly Sane]

Just to note that the last MP murdered  in office was Ian Gow, Conservative, there was a by election which was won by the Lib Dems

[L.A.]

That's a truism and if applied stops all discussion.

Yes, I think it stops this discussion - of course we might debate why it is more distressing to have a loved one murdered than killed in an accident, but I don't think this is the thread to do it on.

[Nearly Sane]

The difference is that many MPs now seem to think that being threatened and attacked is an occupational hazard.

MPs (of all parties) are reacting to one of their own being murdered.  Anyone could die in a car crash. Anyone could die from cancer. Only an MP can be killed on the way to meet their constituents.

and I agree that they will correctly identify more with the circumstances, though in terms of the formulation, only an MP could die in a car crash on their way to meet their constituents is just as true. Anyone can be murdered..


And once again the  question was if it  would be taking advantage of tragedy to stand in a by election in this case, how would that not apply if she had died of a brain tumour?


As I have already covered, I think there are better arguments for not standing but even though seem to have problems. When Ian Gow was murdered part of the reason for there being a contested by by election was precisely to show that terrorism would not affect how we acted.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, I think it stops this discussion - of course we might debate why it is more distressing to have a loved one murdered than killed in an accident, but I don't think this is the thread to do it on.

no,it stops all discussions if we just say what happen, happens. If you do not want to participate in a discussion about how we should react to this atrocity, then you don't have to. I fail to see where else we would discuss it.

[jakswan]

Moderator: content removed.   The day I take lessons from you about tribalism, is the day that hell freezes over.

You would taking a lesson from Jo Cox, do try to keep up. As a libdem its hard to be tribal but I will say the left can be as bad as the right. Dont delude yourself you are somehow better I can assure you that you are not.

Frankly fed up with one side labeling the other a bunch of racists and the other as a bunch of terrorist supporters.

[Nearly Sane]

You would taking a lesson from Jo Cox, do try to keep up. As a libdem its hard to be tribal but I will say the left can be as bad as the right. Dont delude yourself you are somehow better I can assure you that you are not.

Frankly fed up with one side labeling the other a bunch of racists and the other as a bunch of terrorist supporters.

Don't think wigginhall's post reads that way

[Harrowby Hall]

I'm afraid it does come across as though you're not grasping the concept of intentionality.

Dying of a brain tumour (or equivalent - car accident etc.) and being murdered in the street are both purely random occurrences, but the latter has an element of deliberate malice to it - somebody purposely ended a life.

Yes, I agree with this. I think that in addition there was the intention on the part of the murderer of interfering with the democratic process. I think that this is why the major parties are standing back.

[Rhiannon]

Yes, wax it right that the democratic process led to an MP from another party getting elected after the murder of Ian Gow? Arguably that is one thing that his murderers wanted.

[Jack Knave]

Until we get a clear account of why he did it and what was going through his mind we can't really constructively comment on the events.

[Hope]

in terms of the circumstances, no one is denying it, the question is whether the difference is relevant to standing in a by election. Again as previously noted, the argument was made that it was appropriate not to stand because it was taking advantage of a tragedy, surely that would be true whether the death was intentional or not?

NS, I think it is borne out of tradition.  In the past, when MPs have died of natural causes, I don't think that other parties have felt it wrong to put a candiate into the subsequent by-election.  Similarly, when one has been killed in an accident, such as a car crash or the like.  Generally, there has been nothing to indicate that such a death has been premeditated by a 3rd party. (not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).

This case (along with the case of Stephen Timms and one or two others examples) was clearly premeditated by a 3rd party and it is that premediatation that seems to swing the attitudes.

[Nearly Sane]

NS, I think it is borne out of tradition.  In the past, when MPs have died of natural causes, I don't think that other parties have felt it wrong to put a candiate into the subsequent by-election.  Similarly, when one has been killed in an accident, such as a car crash or the like.  Generally, there has been nothing to indicate that such a death has been premeditated by a 3rd party. (not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).

This case (along with the case of Stephen Timms and one or two others examples) was clearly premeditated by a 3rd party and it is that premediatation that seems to swing the attitudes.

As already  noted, the last murdered MP was Ian Gow. By election happened.

[Hope]

Yes, wax it right that the democratic process led to an MP from another party getting elected after the murder of Ian Gow? Arguably that is one thing that his murderers wanted.

Was Bellotti supportive of or antagonistic to Maggie's efforts to thwart the IRA? 

[Hope]

As already  noted, the last murdered MP was Ian Gow. By election happened.

And did the Prov IRA get an MP who was supportive of them or not?

I suppose the issue is whether the UK was in a state of 'civil war' at the time of Gow's death (some historians would say that we were pretty close, if not already there) as opposed to our present situation apropos the EU referendum.

[Harrowby Hall]

.... not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that ...

Stephen Milligan, MP for Eastleigh, hanged himself - but it was not considered to be suicide since it appeared he was engaged in an erotic experiment.

It is believed that he was endeavouring to improve the experience of orgasm while pleasuring himself by restricting his oxygen intake.

[Shaker]

(not sure whether any MP has ever committed suicide, and therefore how folk would approach that).

I do wish that some of these clever computer boffins could invent something where you can look up stuff

https://goo.gl/lpcHUi

[Hope]

I do wish that some of these clever computer boffins could invent something where you can look up stuff

https://goo.gl/lpcHUi

So do I, rather than bringing up an item that is effectively 134 pages long and through which one has to wade to find a single detail.  When I googled the suicide/MP/UK link, it came up with several items but oddly enough Googe decided that day to regard other parts of the world as acceptable inclusions.  Does the mobile version of something like wikipedia differ from the PC version in anything other than layout?

[Shaker]

So do I, rather than bringing up an item that is effectively 134 pages long and through which one has to wade to find a single detail.

It's broken down into clear sections - including one about MPs who have killed themselves.

Have you had this problem using Wikipedia long?

[Hope]

It's broken down into clear sections - including one about MPs who have killed themselves.

Have you had this problem using Wikipedia long?

Unfortunately, this particular link didn't appear in my Google search.  Usually wikipedia items are amongst the first in the listings.

[Nearly Sane]

Unfortunately, this particular link didn't appear in my Google search.  Usually wikipedia items are amongst the first in the listings.

It's what Shaker's link takes you to if you cut and paste it. He had done the work for you.

[Hope]

It's what Shaker's link takes you to if you cut and paste it. He had done the work for you.

Didn't have to cut and paste it, NS.  All I did was highlight the link, right clicked on it, and then clicked on the 'Go to ... ' option.